Best front axle swap to pair with rear Dana 44? |
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DrPop
Member Joined: 12 June 2014 Location: Ventura, CA Status: Offline Points: 202 |
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Posted: 04 Apr. 2016 at 7:22pm |
I might have a line on a rear Dana 44, narrow track flanged axle from a CJ5. Gearing in it is 3.73, and it has the larger 11" brake drums which I wanted to upgrade to as well.
If I swap that in, can anyone give me suggestions on the best front axle to swap in to go with it? I'm thinking something open knuckle with stronger joints and the larger 11" drums or even disc brakes would be ideal. Thanks for the info!
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1946 CJ2A powered by Chevy 350
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flatfender47
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 09 Jan. 2006 Location: Riverside CA Status: Offline Points: 647 |
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Find a matching narrow track Dana 30; most would have 3.73 ratio.
However..you didn't say whether the D44 flanged is offset..You'll need the rare D44 offset version to make the driveline align properly with the D18 transfer case...unless you have a D20 then no worries with the driveline.
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DrPop
Member Joined: 12 June 2014 Location: Ventura, CA Status: Offline Points: 202 |
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Hi Flatfender47, thanks for that info. Yes, the seller said it was offset, flanged, with the 11" drums and 3.73 ratio, out of a CJ5.
I think I better jump on it, seems like that's exactly the axle I'm needing. Is the Dana 30 the strongest option for the front - meaning it would roughly match the Dana 44 for the rear - or was there ever something beefier offered like a Dana 44 front? I didn't remember reading about any narrow track front axle bigger than a Dana 30, but figured you guys would know best! Any particular year donor rig I should be looking at for the best Dana 30 option? Thanks again for the help!
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1946 CJ2A powered by Chevy 350
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Speedy
Member Joined: 07 Apr. 2010 Location: Toronto Canada Status: Offline Points: 531 |
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if you want drop in easy Dana 30 narrow track.
your choice of stock drums or disc. I opted for the disc's for mine. or you can narrow any other axle that you choose.
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- Mike
47 CJ2A - Warn OD, Ramsey PT1-J/Koenig 100,Arctic top,Dana 44 30 spline full float with disc's,Dana 30 with discs, 2.5 lift, Saginaw power steering, dual master cylinder |
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Mark W.
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 09 Nov. 2014 Location: Silverton, OR Status: Online Points: 7986 |
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What engine do you have 3.73's are pretty freeway flier for a 4 banger.
Stock would have been 5.38 in a CJ and 4.88 in a Wagon or Pickup (I believe) 5.38's with a 25% OD is equal to 4.10's so 3.73's would be like a 4.88's with 25% OD You sure wouldn't have any off road crawl 5.38's 30" tires in 1st gear low range 600rpm is 1.7mph 3.73's 30" tires in 1st gear low range 600rpm is 2.5mph Big difference. NEVER MIND I SEE YOUR AN 8 BANGER |
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Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized 1949 3A W/S 1957 CJ5 Frame Modified Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962 |
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DrPop
Member Joined: 12 June 2014 Location: Ventura, CA Status: Offline Points: 202 |
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Hi Mark, we have a Chevy 350 in it, was a crate motor, not sure exact HP and Torque numbers, but it does pretty good.
Although, I'm wondering how much crawl ratio I will lose compared to the 5.38's that are in the Dana 25 / 41 combo on there now. If 3.73 is too much, I could change them out, but sure would be nice on the road. Is there an easy way to re-gear the transfer case to get a better crawl ratio if I do this swap and keep the 3.73 gearing for on road driving?
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1946 CJ2A powered by Chevy 350
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4185 |
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If not abused the Dana 30 should meet your front axle needs.
A Dana 44 front narrow track is a custom built (narrowed) front axle. The 3.73 is near ideal for your engine RPM at hi-way cruise. For crawling situations you will mainly want a truck type 4 speed transmission. Second to that you can lower your differential ratios and or install lower transfer case gear sets. Depends on how low of crawl ratio you desire. Dedicated crawlers will want ratios of 75/1 or more.
Edited by oldtime - 05 Apr. 2016 at 12:36am |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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jpet
Moderator Group Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 30 Apr. 2008 Location: Ramsey, IL Status: Offline Points: 11174 |
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Hi Jedidiah,
To repeat what's been said, a narrow track D30 is a good swap but since you specified the "best", that would be a custom narrowed D44. Personal opinion, a D30 with chromoly axles shafts is very strong. you can convert to 30 spline (more on that in a minute) What type of jeep are you trying to build? ... What are your priorities in order Hi-way speed? Crawlability? Somewhere in between? both? Also, what transmission are you running? I am running 3.73 gears. This is my experience. I love having the 3.73 gears to do interstate speed 65+ mph but if my intent were to drive 55-60, I think I would opt to drop my ratio some. Maybe 4.11 or something. I have no better mileage at 40 mph than I do at 65-70. In fact, it almost seems like my mileage is slightly better the faster I go. I assume this is because I have to go 65+ to get in my power band with the 4.3. My CJ5 with 350 chev and 3.73s was the same. ... The down side is, 3.73s are murder on your crawl ratio. If your intent is to trail ride like the FCT or Black Hills, a stock 37:1 crawl ratio is fine and proven. 50:1 is even better but it is too fast if you are going to start technical rock crawling. If you want to be able to walk up on a rock without touching the gas, I recommend, at a minimum, 75:1 as oldtime said. ..... so, however you get the ratios is up to you, diffs, trans, TC gears. Back to the D30.... you can upgrade a D30 to a 30 spline to make it even stronger. If you plan on changing to a higher number (lower gear) you have to change the carrier housing anyway so you could change to a 30 spline locker at that time. Add chromolly shafts (30 spline), and you would have a very strong front axle assembly. If you want to stick with the 3.73s you can go with a teraflex low kit and a T-90C gear set in the tranny to get close to 37:1 (trail gears). If you want the 75:1 (rock crawl) ratio, and the 3.73 hi-way gears, you will have to go to a 4speed truck tranny, SM420. 465, or T-18. Sorry if I'm over explaining. I have a 3.73 hi and 77:1 low and I'm happy but if I had it to do over again, I might drop to 4.11 in my diffs. Edit: I don't have as much experience as some so this is all FWIW. Edited by jpet - 05 Apr. 2016 at 1:54am |
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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flatfender47
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 09 Jan. 2006 Location: Riverside CA Status: Offline Points: 647 |
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If you go with the D44 rear, you will need new axle ubolts.
The old spring plate ubolt holes will need to be widened. Also the bolt pattern for the rear brake tee bracket that bolts to the diff cover bolts is different. Be aware the narrow D30 is 3" wider overall than a D25/D27/D44 offset flanged. Wheel spacers on the rear will bring the width into alignment with the front. If you're going to hard core crawl the Jeep, a narrowed 44 would be best. But it's a lot more time and money. The nice thing about the D30 is it drops right in, gives you much tighter steering radius, better brakes etc etc. To each his own in what you're trying to accomplish. |
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DrPop
Member Joined: 12 June 2014 Location: Ventura, CA Status: Offline Points: 202 |
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Wow, thanks for the help guys. A lot more to think about. To be honest, I would love to be able to drive the Jeep on the road to "get there" and then on the trail both. But maybe that isn't real feasible without a lot of money thrown at gearing. Right now I tow it with the Land Rover to the trail, and then go from there. I don't do it that often, but the road manners of the CJ2A leave a bit to be desired for any kind of road trip...
If I had to have one goal for it, I'd say I would like to run the Rubicon before the year is out. Not sure if anyone has advice for that? This is no beauty queen or restoration - this was my Grandpa's last Jeep, and even though the CJ7 has always been my favorite, I want to turn this baby into a real trail worthy rig. I had it out to Moab last year, and we just got back from Jeeping on some trails near Vegas. I think it needs at least one locker, maybe two, and definitely better brakes. Currently it has a T14 transmission and what I think is a single shifter Dana 18 from a CJ5 with the Warn overdrive attached. Towing it home from Vegas trails, looks like one of the pins that hold the linkage to the T-case shifter came loose, and it slammed the T-case in gear while I was towing it. I'll have to look at the damage more closely, but I'm not optimistic because I had to push it into the garage when we got home. My Grandpa has the original T90 trans with a Novak Chevy adapter and Dana18 T-case that he's going to give me to put back in it. The only bummer is the shaft in the Warn overdrive doesn't match that transfer case for some reason. It only matched the splines on the transfer case that is currently in it, that's why he did the swap to the T14 and current single shifter T-case. Since I've got to pull the transmission & T-case, drive shafts, put new springs and shocks on, I figured this might be a good time to do an axle swap too. Because I'd like to swap to bigger brakes and this D44 rear flanged axle has them. But now this sounds like it opens up a whole new can of worms. Would it be possible to just swap in the D44 rear now if I purchase it, and re-gear to match the front D25 and just leave it until I find a D30 or something better for the front? Or is that just stupid thinking? Lastly, how hard is it to narrow an axle, or is it one of those things "if you have to ask..." I better not even attempt it? Thanks for listening to the saga and for any good ideas on the project.
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1946 CJ2A powered by Chevy 350
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windyhill
Member Joined: 14 Mar. 2009 Location: North East PA Status: Offline Points: 1395 |
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3:73's are pretty high for of road. I have a stock 67 v6 with 3:73's and and even in 4low it;s way to high geared for off roading. I have 5:38's and a v6 in my 3b with an overdrive and gearing is ideal.
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'48 CJ2A
'53 CJ3B '59 CJ6 '65 CJ5 '67 CJ5 |
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flatfender47
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 09 Jan. 2006 Location: Riverside CA Status: Offline Points: 647 |
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You can purchase 11" brakes and just do the brake upgrade at this time till you figure out what to do.
Factory stock Jeeps have been going over Jeep trails like the Rubicon way before "lift kit" and "locker"were common words. It's the driver, driver ability, and common sense that that get you thru 95% of the time.
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4185 |
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Best advice...
That's a great rear axle. Buy it for future needs but do not bother installing it till you come up with a real plan. It can take years to come up with a real plan and the parts to accomplish your goals. Research every little detail concerning your goal. In the meantime only fix what needs fixing the most. Then drive and enjoy. Let that experience be your guide.
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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DrPop
Member Joined: 12 June 2014 Location: Ventura, CA Status: Offline Points: 202 |
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I'm going to see if I can get that axle, as it looks like it fits the overall build plan. I'm willing to pull the 3.73s and gear it lower if needed. I'll have to see if I can salvage the Warn overdrive from my current setup or not. That might change some gearing ideas...
For the Dana 30 up front, would a Scout II axle work? There's one for sale near me. Or should I be looking at a specific year range of CJ5 only? Too bad it's wider than the offset D44 rear, but spacers wouldn't be too much of a weak link in the back, would they? Thanks for all the tips, it's helping. |
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1946 CJ2A powered by Chevy 350
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jpet
Moderator Group Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 30 Apr. 2008 Location: Ramsey, IL Status: Offline Points: 11174 |
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From what I read, a Scout II has a wide D30. A narrow 30 is 53" WMS to WMS. Perches are 28" apart. You would have to narrow the housing and switch to some narrow axle shafts.
I used 1" spacers on my rear D44 There is lots of information on narrowing axles if you google it and easy videos on YouTube. It doesn't appear to be that hard but you will have to have your shafts cut down or narrow your housings to match the specs of existing shafts. Here is a good read on a front D44: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-willys/1481121-narrow-track-dana-44-housing-3.html HTH Edit: This is all info that I have read. Not personal experience. Edited by jpet - 06 Apr. 2016 at 11:38am |
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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DrPop
Member Joined: 12 June 2014 Location: Ventura, CA Status: Offline Points: 202 |
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Thanks, that does help a lot. How are you guys getting such good crawl ratios? I just did the math, and surprised how bad the stock crawl ratio is on a CJ2A with T90 trans / Dana 18 combo. No wonder they went 5.38 gears!
If I do this axle swap, looks like I need to look real serious at a SM420 transmission or T98 / similar with a deep 1st gear. That would get my crawl ratio to something respectable, and I could leave the 3.73 or go with 4.10, etc, and not even need an overdrive for highway cruising. |
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1946 CJ2A powered by Chevy 350
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jpet
Moderator Group Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 30 Apr. 2008 Location: Ramsey, IL Status: Offline Points: 11174 |
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Yep. If you want to keep the 3.73s you need to go to a granny tranny. I would not recommend an SM420 because the reverse bulge is on the same side as the front drive shaft and it gets in the way. The tranny/TC adapter is 4" long to compensate for this. Since your motor is a Chevy, I would suggest an SM465. No adapter needed to the motor and the TC adapter is on 7/8" long. Granny low is 6.55. That gets you a 60:1 basement. Not too shabby.
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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jpet
Moderator Group Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 30 Apr. 2008 Location: Ramsey, IL Status: Offline Points: 11174 |
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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