cj2a fresh rebuild engine seized oil starvation |
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retrocycler
Member Joined: 27 July 2015 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Posted: 27 July 2015 at 2:56am |
Hi, I've researched this some on the web, but can find no other instances of my situation for guidance. I guess nobody else has been so stupid, or admitted to it.
I've got a '47 Willys that I've had since 1994. When I bought it in '94, the engine was rebuilt (the jeep was built up from a basket case, but not by me). Since then, it had always run great, except for some smoking. In 2007 I had the opportunity to have it rebuilt again, so I figured why not. After that it ran even more perfectly, no smoking anymore. Perfectly quiet, good power, fantastic. We found that it had smoked because in the '94 rebuild the rings put in were too small for the bore. In fact, we found the bores to still have the polishing marks from the '94 rebuild on them! This after my driving it on and off for nearly 15 years! So, no wear on the engine all that time - I was pleased. While I've loved this jeep a great deal, since the rebuild in 2007 I drove it very little. I put maybe 100 to 200 miles on it. I got forgetful checking the oil level, and then on a recent short (15 min) drive it seized after I came to a stop, having coasted in gear downhill. When I pushed in the clutch to make the stop the engine seized. Talk about a sinking feeling in your stomach. I checked the oil, and it was two quarts down (I added two quarts, and then it showed full). That seemed odd for two reasons: It never lost much oil in the past, and would an engine seize only two quarts down? After adding oil, the engine wouldn't budge. I've been trying to budge it by leaving it in 3rd gear and pushing/pulling on it. I also added MM oil to the cylinders through the plug holes. But my intuition tells me that the cylinders are unlikely to be the primary source of friction, in an oil starvation scenario. Would love to hear your opinion on that. Now for the bigger questions: what to do next? How badly is this engine damaged? How can one tell? Should I expect to need another full rebuild? Does one take a 47 Willys to any old repair shop and trust them with a rebuild? Seems unlikely. I don't have the time, tools, shop, or knowledge to do it. I expect anyone that does have the time or knowledge, will also be investing their heart in it, and wouldn't do the job for someone else ( i.e. then they will want the engine for themselves). So I've got a couple questions that I'm going to throw out here: 1. Is there any hope that the engine does not need a full rebuild? (i.e. if there was oil starvation, would it just be the main bearings damaged, seized?) The engine was not being revved hard when it seized, it was just being dragged along in second gear down a hill. 2. Anybody know anyone that would want to rebuild this engine for me? (then we'll talk to them about cost) I'm in central VA. 3. Would anyone care to take this engine off my hands? Is it of any use whatever to anyone? I've been fantasizing about building/converting an electric vehicle, and this jeep would be good fun for that. 4. Would the engine be worth more to people with the rest of the jeep included? The rest of the jeep is not in great shape. It ran fine, but it's kind of ugly. It was used for camping and other off-road shenanigans about once per year for a decade. If someone expresses interest I can give more details. (Oh yea, the past two years the transfer case has not been working in 4WD - it needs a rebuild also!). Sadly the engine was the crown jewel of this jeep! thanks for any wisdom! RC |
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WorkInProgress
Member Joined: 13 Nov. 2013 Location: Kennewick, WA Status: Offline Points: 829 |
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I wouldn't think 2 quarts down would seize it. are you sure the engine is actually seized? I was very upset earlier this year with my own cj2a L134 thinking mine had seized with a terrible feeling in my gut, but I got lucky. mine DID act seized but it turned out my starter bendix was getting pretty bad and getting stuck in the flywheel. before I figured that out I tried starter and wouldn't do anything, I tried pushing and dropping clutch and acted like engine seized after releasing clutch it skidded to stop.
then I removed starter and all was good motor turned again. reinstalled starter and it worked again until I shutoff then I had to remove starter and reinstall every time it acted up. so if I were you I would pull the starter first and try to turn it over by hand and see what happens, then if that doesn't work pull the spark plugs and try again. all with tranny in neutral. next I would pull oil pan and take a look. if nothing obvious I would probably pull the side valve cover and look. then If nothing I would pull head and look. whatever is seizing it should be easy to see once its visable
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My toys
1948 CJ2A 1959 CJ5 1952 M100 TRAILER |
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PhillipM
Member Joined: 28 May 2012 Location: Jackson, MS Status: Offline Points: 560 |
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My skid plate on the oil pan was pulled away on a stump and it broke loose one of the spot welds and the engine ran out of oil. The old gauge used to stick on 0, so I didn't worry till I took my foot off the gas and the rear wheels locked up.
I dropped the pan, changed the bearings, and polished the rough journal a little bit with some emery cloth and put it back together. It's been running fine for many years now and has 60 psi. |
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"90% of all carburetor problems are electrical"
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retrocycler
Member Joined: 27 July 2015 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Phillip and WorkInProgress, thanks very much for your replies! WorkInProgress, I wish/hope that this could be the solution. Phillip, your situation and description sounds exactly like mine, and you've given me hope, thanks. Indeed my oil press. was reading zero, which was a novelty that puzzled me. When I discovered that, I turned around to go home (1 mi. away). Had I not been stupid, I would have immediately stopped the motor. Shortly before seizing the motor acted funny, too: acting "cold" at low RPM, with very little torque. Everything points to a "properly" seized motor.
Phillip, when you say you changed the bearings, you mean just the main bearings? And emery cloth on the journal, you mean you polished the bearing surfaces on the crankshaft? So you pulled out the crankshaft (disconnecting the pushrods, etc.)? Does it just come out if you unbolt the bearings and pushrods? As long as I don't have to pull out the motor, I can do that kind of work. Pulling the motor out and completely disassembling it is going to be beyond my means. I do need to figure out why oil pressure would have been zero, if only two quarts down. I didn't think the oil pump in these motors could fail, given they are a very simple mesh/gear design directly connected to crank (I think). Maybe the pickup got clogged with something, even though after a rebuild, all was clean inside this engine. You've given me enough hope to pull the oil pan off and have a look. Then I'll report back. Thanks gentlemen. RC |
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Bob3b
Member Joined: 08 Mar. 2010 Location: Akron, Ohio Status: Offline Points: 3097 |
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Retrocycler, good luck. Perhaps if it is seized it might be cheaper to find another running motor to install.
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1946 CJ2A #23881
1953 CJ3b, nice! 1949 Jeepster 1947 Empire Model 90 1985 CJ10A Spen "S" Utility trailer Kubota l3400 |
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PhillipM
Member Joined: 28 May 2012 Location: Jackson, MS Status: Offline Points: 560 |
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Retrocycler, I think I did it all with the crank in the engine. It was a long time ago, 1990ish, and I was in my early 20's, I didn't mind laying on my back all day.
I may have removed the transmission and dropped the crank, but I think I left it in the engine and just did one journal at a time. I think I was able to roll the top half of the bearing out and roll a new one in. I know the engine stayed in the jeep though. I also bought a new oil pump and was somehow able to replace it without messing with the distributor. When you take the oil pump pickup from the block, make sure it's surface is perfectly flat! If it isn't a little work with a file will true it up. I hope someone that has been in one of these engines chimes in soon, and I apologize my memory is so fuzzy. On edit: I found instructions for doing this. http://mvpimages.net/cgi-bin/willys/willyskb.cgi?function=adjustweight&msgnum=110164&keywords=davehallikainen&searchmethod=1&searchresults=100 As far as replacing the bearing inserts without
pulling the engine, it can be done. The manual says otherwise, but I did it myself. Would I do it again? No, I'd probably just pull the engine. Replacing the rod bearings is a piece of cake with the engine still in the vehicle. The tricky part is replacing the upper half of each main bearing. They are held by dowels to prevent the inserts from rotating. This precludes slipping them out without lowering the crankshaft. What I did was drop the crankshaft a small amount without removing it. The pulley on the front and the timing cover will have to be removed. This is so the front of the crankshaft can be lowered. Theoretically, the timing cover need only be loosened from the front of the block, but the gasket will probably not be reuseable so it and the pulley would have to come off for that anyway. Pressure from the clutch will not let the crankshaft tip down. Depress the clutch pedal and restrain it in the lowered position. A motorcycle tiedown on the linkage below works well. With the crankshaft "free" like this, you can replace the upper inserts one at a time. Loosen the aft bearing cap a smidge, loosen the middle one even more, and the crankshaft will tip down enough for clearance to get the front bearing insert over the dowel pin. Loosely reinstall the front cap to support the front, but let it hang down so there is enough clearance to replace the middle bearing upper insert. Repeat the process but tip the crankshaft in the other direction to access the rear main upper insert. There wasn't a lot of room, but it can be done. Don't let the crankshaft hang unsupported, but always let it rest on the two other caps while working on the third bearing. Don't let the crankshaft droop any more than is necessary, because it applies a side load to the transmission input shaft. A little won't hurt, but don't overdo it. Don't release the clutch until the bearing caps are back in position and you should be all set. Edited by PhillipM - 27 July 2015 at 3:00pm |
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"90% of all carburetor problems are electrical"
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Joe DeYoung
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Madison WI Status: Offline Points: 3362 |
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Sound advise for RC's level of engine internals knowledge. $300-500 and your tearing up the trails again. If you do want to tackle that motor, I suggest you pull the oil pan off first, then the rod and main caps to see what you have. If that looks good (which from reading your account of events would most likely be a miracle), then remove the spark plugs and push/pull the piston/rod assemblies to see if they move. If they don't then you have big problems and will need a complete tear down. I suppose you can pull the starter first as well. It's a long shot but quick and easy to do.
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Joe DeYoung
to many jeeps, parts, and accessories to list here, but apparently enough to keep me in trouble with my wife. |
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RA472A
Member Joined: 15 Nov. 2005 Status: Offline Points: 367 |
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I also had the "seized engine" feeling with the starter gear bound up with the flywheel. I sure hope you get lucky and it's the same issue.
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Bruce W
Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9651 |
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The oil pump pickup screen swings on its tube, and is supposed to float on top of the oil in the pan. If the screen was stuck in the "up" position and the oil went two quarts low........ BW
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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PhillipM
Member Joined: 28 May 2012 Location: Jackson, MS Status: Offline Points: 560 |
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He was going down the road, can't be the starter |
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"90% of all carburetor problems are electrical"
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retrocycler
Member Joined: 27 July 2015 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Wow, that's a lot of replies! Thanks a lot! It may be another week or two before I'm able to mess with it, then I can report something back. Phillip, I've gotten some hope!
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WorkInProgress
Member Joined: 13 Nov. 2013 Location: Kennewick, WA Status: Offline Points: 829 |
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at least for my jeep when my seized engine turned out to be the starter. yes it would drive after being started just fine with no indication of being a problem or anything wrong, until it was shut off then it was acting like seized engine.
IF perhaps he had stalled the motor and killed it. for any reason it stopped running. it could still be stuck starter in ring gear. I know for him its a long shot but it is still a hopeful possibility
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My toys
1948 CJ2A 1959 CJ5 1952 M100 TRAILER |
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48willys
Member Joined: 22 June 2007 Location: sw/ virginia Status: Offline Points: 1340 |
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How did the oil pickup tube look when you had it apart? I was haveing oil pressure problems on mine and found this, they epoxied a bolt head to the hole and it fell out after the epoxy broke down.
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1946 cj2a #28680
1948 chevy 3800 thriftmaster 1946-50's cj2a-3a farm jeep 1993 yj, aka the yj7 |
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retrocycler
Member Joined: 27 July 2015 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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When I get time to work on it, I'll be sure to post some pictures.
Thanks for giving me some courage! |
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Nick_
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 05 May 2014 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1132 |
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It isn't even my engine and the anticipation is killing me.
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retrocycler
Member Joined: 27 July 2015 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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@48willys
"they epoxied a bolt head to the hole" begs a couple questions: 1. what hole? (I see no holes in photo, though I think I see a bolt head) 2. what purpose for the epoxied bolt head? Was this to hold the pick up tube to the block? Is there a bolt whose head was sheared off during a disassembly, leaving in essence a "stud" in the block? This stud "they" did not want to remove, but instead glue a bolt head onto? (sounds very stupid. But still, not as stupid as my ignoring a gauge showing zero oil pressure) 3. How did the failed adhesive, the fallen-off bolt head create a problem? Did your pickup tube fall off the block (without your knowledge while motor running)? By the way: to the commenters about my starter possibly being the problem. I haven't checked that yet, though it seems unlikely (the engine seized from a running condition. Thereafter, I used the starter once, with the engine not turning over, as I expected - I mean, I knew that engine had seized when it quit. Now I suppose it is possible that the engine seized for real, but only temporarily, and that the starter is merely continuing the illusion of seizure... one can dream.) I do appreciate the tips about the starter and I will remove it first thing. Why not - it is indeed the easiest of tasks contemplated, easier even than simply removing the oil pan. The description of the starter reminds me of another time the engine "seized," very early in my career with this jeep. I had had it on the trails just once or twice in '94, when something began to make a nasty noise somewhere down in the tranny or engine or front diff. area, but only on steep descents. It was very intermittent and difficult to reproduce reliably. One day, descending steep hill in 2nd-low 4wd, there was the noise again, but only for an instant, when the motor quit VERY suddenly with all wheels locking up the same instant. So I've had that sinking feeling once before. It was very obvious the engine had seized. Luckily another jeep was along so we were able to drag it out in neutral. And I had just gotten this jeep! I felt a bit ripped-off. A week later we started on the work: first we had to disconnect the bell housing, before pulling the motor. As soon as we started to pull the motor away from the bell, wouldn't you know it: a bolt fell out! One of the bolts holding the (gear onto the pressure plate? pardon my ignorance) had come out, come to rest at the bottom of the bell housing, and there would tangle with the starting gear teeth on steep descents. Finally it jammed in that gear, instantly and very authoritatively stopping all "rotating machinery." In fact, that "seizure" was more sudden and felt more violent than the current seizure. (you know like an LED going off, instead of an incandescent bulb? The effect is subtle, but the transient in an LED is much steeper than in an incandescent bulb.) It put me on notice about the quality of the rebuild/renovation in that jeep, but thankfully no further problems cropped up in the twenty years since (except the too-small rings as I mentioned in my original post). Thanks again for the conversation. |
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WeeWilly
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 07 May 2009 Location: Clayton IN Status: Offline Points: 3423 |
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The hole in the pic is right where the pic-up tube makes a short 90 degree, the out side corner. It would lose all it oil pressure right there.
Jim |
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47 CJ2A (Ranch Hand) 48 CJ2A, 48 Willys truck, T3C 3782, M274 (Military Mule)
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PhillipM
Member Joined: 28 May 2012 Location: Jackson, MS Status: Offline Points: 560 |
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I'm not sure what the epoxy thing is either, but his photo illustrates my earlier comment. The flange is warped, I can see the curve, that needs to be filed straight.
Starter seized. Although I don't think this is his problem, it used to happen to me. To unlock it, put it in 3rd, high range and push the jeep backwards. A professer of mine was an old school car guy, he said a four cylinder will stop in only two positions and the ring gear wears in those two spots. He said to avoid this, use the clutch to stop the engine in a random position. That worked! Later, after I had the starter rebuilt and replaced the bushing in the bellhousing, it's not been a problem. For a further note of encouragement, when mine seized, it was just one bearing, all the rest looked okay. Edited by PhillipM - 29 July 2015 at 3:36pm |
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"90% of all carburetor problems are electrical"
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