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Cluth Adjustment Problems

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gibster4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gibster4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cluth Adjustment Problems
    Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 8:35pm
OK Geniuses, .......
sorry to do this but I have to start another 1946 CJ2A Column Shift Clutch Adjustment Topic.

God knows I have tried everything, pulled the engine twice, and tried all of tricks I know about.

Situation: Frame up restoration - completed
                New clutch/new pressure plate/now a new throwout bearing.
                Same flywheel, same T/O carrier fork, same cable, new control rod.

Symptoms: The fingers are not moving far enough to disengage the clutch.
                   Even with adjusting the T/O bearing to the point of no free play (Bad Thing)

History: First time I just blindly adjusted the clutch until I could shift it, with out bothering to look in
             through the inspection cover and see that, because I had no free play, the T/O bearing
             was spinning all of the time so it promptly burned up, seized, and ground down the
             fingers on the new pressure plate.
             It took less than a mile to do this.   OK lesson learned - you have to have free play!
             The T/O bearing is not meant to spin all the time!

             Pulled the engine, replaced the Pressure Plate, T/O bearing and carrier.
             (carrier bearing is same height as original)
             Now I am trying to adjust it so it works and it 'aint' going well at all.
             Suppose to have @1.5 of freeplay at the top of the pedal - not happening
             Ok I can live with less, as long as the T/O bearing isn't touching the fingers and turning
             when the engine rotates, I am at @ 1/8" right now, but when I depress the clutch pedal
             it will not disengage the clutch from the flywheel - I can't shift!@?*

Things I have tried: 1.Checked to make sure the original Tube and Lever Assy rotates nice without
                                   slop because of wear on the ends of the tube - all good
                                2. Shortened the Control Rod to give me more adjustment in the cable and
                                    possibly change the ratio of the lever action - didn't change it.
                                    But a shorter rod is better, leaving the cable adjustment about in the
                                    middle, with room to back off or tighten as needed.
                                3. Removed the 1" thick felt washer from behind the Clutch Pedal on the
                                    engine side of the fire wall, in hopes of gaining more 'Throw'. - didn't gain
                                    anything, well maybe a smidgen - but not enough.
                                4. Disconnected the clutch pedal itself and slid it higher in the lever collar,
                                    beyond what it is supposed to be, again trying to gain more 'throw'.
                                    Gained a small bit - but not enough
                                    NOTE: At this point with a mirror I checked the movement of the T/O Fork
                                               and carrier - it seems that it can't move back any farther as it is
                                               against the rear of the bell housing.
                                5. Took the fork out - checked the pivot ball both seem OK, reinstalled same.
                                    Checked to see fork is pivoting on the pivot ball - yes
                                    Fork did not look bent.
                                6. Dug old parts from other projects, flywheel, Auburn pressure plate, couple
                                    of old clutch disc's and mocked up an assembly to study any possible
                                    differences or solutions. Everything seems the same as the assembly in the
                                    jeep. I checked the fingers on the new pressure plate before installing it,
                                    even though I am told they are factory adjusted to spec. - all were even.
                                    The bolting of the new pressure plate, to the flywheel was roughly the
                                    same distance away, @ 3/16", from the flywheel, as the Auburn mochup.
                                    As you tighten the 6 bolts the pressure plate ring tightens against the
                                    clutch disc, and the bolts bring the pressure pate mounting tight to the
                                    flywheel.
                                7.  Put the jeep against a wall and started it in gear with the clutch pedal
                                     pushed down to make sure the clutch disc was free from the flywheel,
                                     and I did get to see that  when fully depressed in that situation the clutch
                                     disc was stopped, so it is free from the pressure plate and flywheel, but I
                                     could not shift out of gear. After stopping the engine, we had to rock the
                                     jeep away from the wall to be able to shift back in to neutral.
                                     - Still dragging to much to shift!
                                     The transmission is good and it shifts fine. I know that from driving it the
                                     first time

BOTTOM LINE: The Clutch linkage will not move the fingers of the pressure plate enough to
                        disengage the clutch.

I have read the old posts about adjusting clutches, etc., and just don't see any answers, so myself being out of ideas, I thought I would start another clutch topic in the hopes of someone coming up with something I haven't.

HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gib
                                    
                         
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samcj2a View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 8:54pm
Some of the reproduction control rods are too long.  I think that the longer one is for the MB with the T-84, but I am not sure, but that is what I recall.  My guess is that is your problem.   Several years ago, there was a thread that addressed that problem.

Edit: I see in this thread - Clutch problems - there are two other possible issues.  Read through it and check each possibility.  Control rod too long, Control tube installed backwards and clutch fork installed so it won't move the throwout bearing.

Edit:  Here's another thread worth a read.  Clutch Release Cable  It shows different lengths for the cable even with the same part number.

Edited by samcj2a - 25 Apr. 2012 at 9:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 9:17pm
I do have mine adjusted now but it still isn't the best setup.

Basically I didn't have enough cable adjustment left in the stock cj2a cable. I have a shorter mb cable but that is just a band-aid to get more adjustment. The mb cable is about 1" shorter.

After checking it again I found that the control shaft is installed correctly on the transfer case but the ear that the cable connects too points too far forward, it leans forward about 45deg. From what I understand the ear on the control shaft should point up/a little forward.

So, why is it pointing too far forward....whelp, not sure yet. It could be my loose control shaft riding on the mounting balls or maybe my rod between my clutch pedal to the control shaft is too long.

I'm thinking it's my rod, I have a stock cj2a rod so it didn't magically shrink. So, I'm getting back under there to see if there is something else up.

You should be able to see the fork move freely with the inspection cover off as you depress the pedal. Before I put the covers on I drove it a bit and watched the pressure plate/fork working. Kinda cool seeing it all spin without the covers. After I saw the fork working ok I put covers back on.

Just be careful not to pop the spring off the throw out bearing. Mine came off while checking my fork. I have thin hands and it still took a good 15 minutes to get the spring back on.

Edited by MarkB - 25 Apr. 2012 at 9:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harveynailbanger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 10:05pm
almost willing to bet the control rod is too long.
i also read a thread and it may have been the one Sam references but thought it was different about different length clutch cables, is it possible to mix up a stay cable with the clutch cable? never compared them.
Rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gibster4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 10:08pm
Thanks,

I am still studying my moves so far - there is got to be something I am not seeing.
Like I said I have already shortened the rod.
I have looked at the tube and with the shorter rod, they are straight up and down, so reversing this wouldn't seem to change anything, since they are both the same height.
I am especially worried that the fork is 'bottoming out' at the rear of the bell housing, and seems to be moving pretty much all the way forward - their just isn't any more room for movement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harveynailbanger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 10:12pm
well then geometry would suggest the  pivot pin on the tranny cover, what shape is it in? i had a fork in my pile o jeep that was bent, have you checked yours?
 
rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gibster4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 10:20pm
With great difficulty having big hands, I have pulled the fork and the pivot ball, both look OK, and both are original parts to this jeep????????

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gibster4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 10:21pm
and yes the fork is behind the pauls on the T/O carrier

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harveynailbanger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 10:41pm
im lost on this one , did you have a stay cable originally and mix it up with the clutch cable?
 
rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee (MN) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 11:09pm
   For what its worth,I had an early CJ-5 and replaced the engine and had the same thing going as you, turns out I somehow bent the hub in the cluth plate putting the engine back in and this made the disc wobble and would not release. Not saying this is your problem but sompthing to consider, MHO, Lee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clone421 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2012 at 11:11pm
Pictures are appreciated. I'm at a loss at what your original problem is. When I was going over the clutch on my restoration everything was replaced with new parts except for the pedal shaft, fork, and the adjusting cable. The entire assembly operates as directed in the owners manual. What I think your stating never happened to me, but then again I did not shorten my control rod.
 
You're saying that you can't disengage the pressure plate when you depress the pedal correct? But later in your original post you mention that the clutch was disengaged.


Edited by Clone421 - 25 Apr. 2012 at 11:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr. 2012 at 7:37am
Gib, so with the inspection cover off can't you see the fork/bearing is pushing the pressure plate forward. It moves forward about 1" after it starts pushing the fingers.

That should tell you a lot about what the the fork is doing and if it's moving through it's range?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gibster4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr. 2012 at 9:39am
It is only moving the fingers in about a 1/4" or so, and that movement is the total stroke capacity of the pedal movement @ 6", and the cable end of the fork which is moving front to rear ro its full capacity. If it is supposed to be moving an inch, it isn't
Gib
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr. 2012 at 10:45am
Hopefully someone chimes in with the exact dimension the bearing moves from when it contacts fingers to full engaged pressure plate fingers.

My 1" is a guesstimation.....but I know it wasn't anywhere near 1/4". I could see that happening if the fork wasn't seated on the tabs that stick out from the bearing. But, you said you already checked all that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carlsjeep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr. 2012 at 8:35pm
Are you sure you don't have the clutch plate in backwards?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote F Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr. 2012 at 9:00pm
Or the clutch pedal tube installed upside down //inside out//backwards?
If you haven't checked out the tech FAQ section, go to:
http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/tech-faq_forum57.html
for a lot of great stuff you need to know!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gibster4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr. 2012 at 10:55pm
It's pretty hard to put the clutch disc in backwards on these, as when you do, the clutch will not lie flat on the flywheel for assembly, the flywheel side is flat, while the pressure plate side is raised in the center.

But I appreciate the thought, and when i was seventeen, working under a snowcat, on the ski slopes, I did put a clutch disc in backwards - wow that was a wild ride down the hill!@*?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gibster4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr. 2012 at 11:01pm
It has pretty much come down to this - it has to be in reversed, because this a basic geometric problem. The geometry is wrong, here somehow. If one A-Frame is higher than the other, and it is revered, that would cause the geometry of the lever action to be 2X wrong!

So that is tomorrows next step pull the tube and reinstall it the other way.

I let you know how it goes - GOD I hope this is it! (Prayer)

Didn't work on it today had to drive to Buffalo.
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