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metal_miner Kubota swap

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metal_miner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metal_miner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 5:49am

I apologize for not updating this thread. I got pretty busy with work and family obligations, but have made some more progress.

First, I needed to make some decisions for the frame. While relatively straight and sound, adding on to the existing frame was not on my radar, so thank you Meiser (Metcalf) for your feedback. It was very informative and gave me many things to think about.

Since I don’t have the tooling, skills, and confidence yet for building a frame, I took Meiser’s basic frame design to two different fabrication shops in town for a budget estimate. The first shop quoted me $1000 for the basic build (including CNC cut side plates) with $ add-ons for customization work once I finalize locations on the frame. I felt the $1000 was kind of light for steel pricing, rough time estimate, and shop rates. The other shop reluctantly quoted me “at least” $2500 for the basic frame, but I could tell the second shop was very hesitant to even take this on.

In parallel, I also began to research the Top Down Kustoms frames. I contacted TDK and asked numerous questions about customization and pricing. In short, TDK can do anything you want for a price!

In all I weighed the following factors:

-Degree of extra work required to custom frame versus TDK frame

-Value of my time in terms of moving forward on this project

-Value of family time and keeping in my wife’s good graces

-Value of my physical fitness training time

In the end I chose the basic TDK CJ frame with extended front frame rails, Saginaw mount adjusted for axle location, swing out tire carrier, and tow receiver.

I set up the new springs on the old frame and took measurements for Jeremy @ TDK. We then discussed these measurements versus his previous experiences with similar custom frame setups. He relayed the same as what Meiser advised in his post above.



I ordered the frame the first week of July and it showed up July 31:


More pictures coming in my next post...

M38. SM465, 3.6 D18, Saturn OD. Soon to be Kubota V2203.

Other toy: 2003 Dodge Cummins with a few mods to 725 HP/1260 TQ.
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Oilleaker1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 12:01pm
I was under the impression that the v2203 was a bolt in fit with new front motor mounts and no firewall mods. Now both you and Larry say you saw a need to modify or cut the firewall when you hung the engine and test fit it. Is this due to the taller head with overhead valves? I've also read where the L134 and Kubota are the same cubic inch engine size and the stock Willys radiator is more than adequate. Will the go devil fan fit the Kubota waterpump? Reason for asking is that you could keep the patented Jeep fan noise.LOL  Lastly, is it necessary to remove the stock front motor mounts or can you build your own adaptor mounts that simply bolt from the Kubota to the stock Jeep mounts? My plan was to not modify the Jeep so it could be returned to stock if desired.  The other things I've seen are different intake manifolds that enter in the center and not up front. The up front causes mechanical fan clearance problems for the charger tube from the turbo. Or------will the center up and over route cause hood clearance issues? I appreciate your thread as it has given even more info. I didn't know. I also have discovered a Mitsubishi TD 04 turbo works great on the v 2203. Way cheaper than 900.00 bucks. Lots to consider. By the way, you definately have the right handle. Metal mining Jeep parts for sure. Body and now frame. Holy Cow. Oilly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pjensen641 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 7:22pm
Oilleaker- Thats it, I'm starting my own thread today.  Seems like there is lots of interest in these swaps.

Regarding the intake.  There are at least 2 if not 3 intake configurations available.  The front inlet is a "Carrier Spec" as it comes from the most common source of these engines, the decommissioned Carrier refer units.  However, you can get on ebay and find other configurations if you wish.  www.overlanddiesel.com, the source of the kit, has good photos of different intake arrangements in the photos of the turbo kit.

A note of caution, there are many many sizes of TD04, only the very small ones are good for this engine.   You can't just source a Subaru WRX take-off.  That being said, if you keep at it, you can find a suitable turbo on ebay if you keep an eye out.  You must be VERY careful though, because 90% of the turbos on ebay are Chinese knock-offs.  Personally, I would not run one, though some people have had success.  I held out and got a brand new genuine IHI RHF4 (AS12 spec, the smallest in the family) for $200.  A Garrett GT1544 was my first choice, but none ever showed up for less than retail.

Motor mounts, can't help there.  I would have thought that Overland diesel would have adapted to the stock motor mounts if they could have.  I didn't put any effort in making my own adapters.

Firewall- Yes, it must be cut or heavily shaped with a large hammer.  Personally, I tried for a very short time with a hammer and the result was taking forever and it was going to look terrible.  I cut a section out and boxed it in with new 16 gage.  For most people, it appears as though the boxed section was stock.  The clearance issue is with the back of the head.  The valve cover will clear, but the head and rear portion of the exhaust manifold will not.

Fan - I'm sure you could fab an adapter if you had some way to keep the fan balanced.  You could also get a fixed mechanical fan made for the V2203 from www.partsbarn.com.  However, I think the rest of the diesel noise is going to trump any fan noise that would approximate a stock sound.

I also had a lot of apprehension about permanently altering this family heirloom.  I thought it would lose too much of its identity.  For me, I most remember the rattle of the worn NOVI governor from the old L134.  After having 1200+ miles on my conversion, I can say that the positives outweigh any lost nostalgic traits.  It turns the jeep in to some thing you can easily trust and drive long distances at rural highway speeds.  I had about 50 miles on mine before setting out on a 150 miles drive up to my parents house, then we drug it out to Wyoming for some offroading.  I just held it against the governor at 55mph the whole way and it performed flawlessly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 10:07pm
The issue with the firewall is this, here is a shot of the back of a 134 looking straight down, my finger locates the surface where the bell hsg. bolts to the block , this extends approx. 1.5" from the back of the block.



Here is a like shot of a Kubota, this is a little bigger than a V2203 but the same situation.



The 1.5" difference is where the problem is, as the tub was made for the Go-Devil, the Kubota either needs to be set ahead, or the firewall modified.

Lee
               LEE
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel_Buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 10:14pm
I've done both.  First, I modified my firewall.  Then when I put in the T98 transmission I moved the motor forward 2 inches.  If I'd do it all over again, I'd just move the motor forward from the get go, especially with the electric fan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 10:37pm
Would using the longer 6 cylinder 225 input shaft in the T 90 and a wider spacer/adaptor plate allow the needed forward movement of the engine while leaving the tranny in stock position????????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 10:39pm
Oh, I forgot, maybe using a quiet muffler on the diesel would increase the much needed fan noise!Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metal_miner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 10:40pm
In September I started playing around with body and engine locations on the frame after temporarily installing the springs and axles. I only wanted to drill holes once in my new tub as well as minimize any sheet metal work. I cut out some 1x4 wood planks into 4x4 pieces with a 1” hole to mimic body mounts – large enough so I could adjust tub location without falling off the body mount brackets. I then set the drivetrain inside the frame on blocks and bolted up the fenders.

At this point I was starting to get very frustrated with using various bubble levels. Even though the bubble looked level, my angle finder said otherwise. I ended up ordering one of these digital levels:

http://www.trick-tools.com/Digi_Pas_DWL_200_Digital_Level_DWL200_1464

Having the ability to zero and use an alternative zero is very handy.

Another handy tool that I learned from Metcalf’s build thread on Pirate was using DYKEM blue layout fluid. The new frame already had numerous reference marks on it so the layout fluid helped highlight these as well as new reference points.

Finally, I need to make a plug for Ruffstuff Specialties. They sell a variety of premade tabs and brackets. Just by perusing their website one gets a ton of ideas as to how to facilitate a project versus designing and fabricating from scratch.

Back to setting up the body…

I tacked in some temporary radiator support brackets to set radiator location and now I was finally ready to set engine location.

I spent a couple of weekends debating mechanical versus electric fan. I finally chose to use the stock Kubota mechanical fan. The mechanical fan is recessed back over the water pump hub enabling the engine to move about 3” forward than if I used an electric fan. This meant:

-no firewall modifications

-longer rear driveshaft

-maintained front axle housing clearance since axle moved forward with using rear springs up front.

 






M38. SM465, 3.6 D18, Saturn OD. Soon to be Kubota V2203.

Other toy: 2003 Dodge Cummins with a few mods to 725 HP/1260 TQ.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel_Buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by Oilleaker1 Oilleaker1 wrote:

Would using the longer 6 cylinder 225 input shaft in the T 90 and a wider spacer/adaptor plate allow the needed forward movement of the engine while leaving the tranny in stock position????????


I imagine it would.  You don't need MUCH more room, so even if you just got 1/2" more clearance by using a wider adapter and longer input shaft, that would be enough to keep the motor from kissing the firewall. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 10:48pm
I'll take a look at this. I have a pickup tranny with it in it already. Metal Miner's Jeep is going to be a excellent study for us. I love it when someone else "goes first" LOL. Keep up the posts, I'm quite interested. John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Daniel_Buck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 10:50pm
by time all of us are 'finished' with our kubota conversions, we'll have enough info to do it nice and clean the 1st go around.  haha :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pjensen641 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 10:51pm
Metal_Miner....that's a nice looking frame!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metal_miner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 11:05pm
At this point it’s October and I haven’t set the motor mounts yet.

I clamped my stock transmission crossmember to the frame to understand how much below the frame the OEM drivetrain hung down. The bottom of the stock crossmember / transfer case hung down about 4” so I decided I wanted to do better than this with OEM thickness body mounts, but minimize floor pan clearancing. I also wanted to keep the fan centered top-to-bottom on the radiator. After 3 weekends of shimming, centering, and levelling the drivetrain on blocks and taking the body on and off, I settled on about 2.5 degrees of engine tilt and tucking up the rear of the transfer case about 1” better than stock. I can go to 0 degrees of engine tilt, by raising the transfer case another 1”, but then that requires more floor modifications (or body lift). Finally, I was ready to tack in the engine mounts.







M38. SM465, 3.6 D18, Saturn OD. Soon to be Kubota V2203.

Other toy: 2003 Dodge Cummins with a few mods to 725 HP/1260 TQ.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metal_miner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov. 2015 at 11:33pm
I forgot to post in my earlier updates that I set the grill hinge attachments with rivnuts.

Over the past few weeks I've been working on a new transmission crossmember, so that will be my next picture update... hopefully next weekend. It's been about zero degrees in my garage for the past few days so I've just been bundling up for a few hours at a time and making slow progress.

I feel that a major source of motivation for me to move ahead on this project has been having another set of eyes look at what I was doing. This is all new to me so I was overthinking and second guessing everything so having someone else to walk through my plans who has "been there, done that" helped a lot. I know the following sounds dumb to the experienced fabricators, but the two biggest takeaways I learned to keep frustrations down were:

1) to tack everything and finish weld at the end before painting.
2) set smaller goals for accomplishment at the end of each day.
M38. SM465, 3.6 D18, Saturn OD. Soon to be Kubota V2203.

Other toy: 2003 Dodge Cummins with a few mods to 725 HP/1260 TQ.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote metal_miner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov. 2015 at 2:40am
Originally posted by pjensen641 pjensen641 wrote:


A note of caution, there are many many sizes of TD04, only the very small ones are good for this engine.   You can't just source a Subaru WRX take-off.  That being said, if you keep at it, you can find a suitable turbo on ebay if you keep an eye out.  You must be VERY careful though, because 90% of the turbos on ebay are Chinese knock-offs.  Personally, I would not run one, though some people have had success.  I held out and got a brand new genuine IHI RHF4 (AS12 spec, the smallest in the family) for $200.  A Garrett GT1544 was my first choice, but none ever showed up for less than retail.


Good info - thanks for sharing. I noticed on your thread pictures that you adapted a different turbo to the exhaust manifold.

I noticed too for these small turbos that their manifold flange bolt patterns are not consistent. There are also many different manifolds that bolt onto the V2203 and each of these has slightly different bolt patterns. Of course it's just a matter of building flange adapters.
M38. SM465, 3.6 D18, Saturn OD. Soon to be Kubota V2203.

Other toy: 2003 Dodge Cummins with a few mods to 725 HP/1260 TQ.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pjensen641 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov. 2015 at 5:12am
You are exactly right on those flanges.  I just finished up my turbo selection post.  If you can find a GT1544, you can order flanges from a tuner website.  Mine was an Agricultureal spec turbo.  No tuners are interested in those flanges Cry.  I made mine out of 1/4" mild steel.  No small feat with a small bench top drill press and a die grinder!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masscj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov. 2015 at 10:33am
Very nice
1946 CJ2a Dauntless aka Jalopy
1946 VEC stock
1981 CJ-8 5.3 LS
1966 CJ-6 SBC TUX
1968 CJ-6 225 V6
1974 CJ-6 4.2
1967 M-416
East Coast Modified CJ's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov. 2015 at 12:00pm
Questions Mr. Miner. What is the vertical round item on your rear crossmember to the passenger side of the reciever hitch? Also what is your wheelbase now that you moved the front diff forward? By moving it forward, you cleared the oil filter better and a longer wheelbase gives a better ride.  And, getting back to intakes, I noticed that one of the guys in Overland Diesels Gallery has cut the intake hose spiggot off the front, welded the end shut with a plate, and then re-installed the spiggot by welding it on top where he wanted the turbo to enter it.  Wonder if it would flow OK, or not. Very cool project. John
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