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Overdrive Question

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tamnalan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamnalan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 1:45pm
I don't think the shims issue is reflective of the quality of Herm's ATV unit or the Advance Adapters Saturn OD.  I'm not sure, but I think Herm uses many Advance Adapters parts and manufactures some of his own, and I believe Advance Adapters manufactures most all of their stuff, except for the bearings.  Those of you running rebuilt Warn units today, are surely using Advance Adaptor parts unless you stumbled on some NOS stuff.

The shims idea and the 0.677" spec may have arisen as a way to accommodate the people who's ODs weren't working right, because of spec drift in the OD or in the cast iron transfer case or transmission output shaft.  T-84 transmissions didn't originally call for any shims either, but now many of us use them.

My OD would probably have worked fine without the 0.007" shim - I just wanted to follow Herm's instructions as closely as possible.  Heck... my ability to precisely measure 0.007" is a bit iffy.  I'm probably plus or minus at least 0.002.


Edited by tamnalan - 21 May 2015 at 1:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 2:24pm
This sounds like an area ripe for a long term test. 
(Like I said, this has nothing to due with Herm's product or service - I think he runs a tight ship.)

When I say long term, that's because I am involved in too many other things...

I have a new husky, 2 new Warn's, and 6 used Warns in parts, and the parts to rebuild them.
Some of the parts are NOS warn, some from Advance, bearings are aftermarket.

I'll I measure some parts, and interchange some between the cases etc.
Maybe we can get an idea of new vs worn and design changes over time.
It just seems odd that a 65 year old trouble free design is suddenly so troublesome.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rags Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 10:07pm
UPDATE ON ORIGINAL POST...
So I removed the transmission cover and noticed the linkage was just touching the rear of the transmission.  I added two additional 1/4" spacers to the shifters mounting bracket, to lift the linkage up a bit and that gave me a bit more throw in direct drive (about the thickness of a dime) and that did the trick.  The shifter now stays put in direct drive, its amazing how tight the tolerances are on these overdrives.
As far as Herms statement that it won't go into direct drive until I put 200 miles on it, I still don't know why he would say that, especially after reading everyone's replies on this post.  It seems anyone having issues with an overdrive seem to be with them jumping out of overdrive not direct drive.  Anyway thanks all for your commentsClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RICKG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 10:21pm
 Way to goClap! I can see how the 2A and 3A guys have a problem w/shifter clearance since you don't have the luxury of the removable large tranny cover like us M38 guys. With the cover off you really get a good view of the linkage. Now get out there and enjoy that OD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bretto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by tamnalan tamnalan wrote:

Those of you running rebuilt Warn units today, are surely using Advance Adaptor parts unless you stumbled on some NOS stuff.

The shims idea and the 0.677" spec may have arisen as a way to accommodate the people who's ODs weren't working right, because of spec drift in the OD or in the cast iron transfer case or transmission output shaft.


Other than the main component like the gears and case pieces, the rest of the parts like the all the bearings and synchros can be replaced with stuff you can source elsewhere. The synchros are the same as the ones used in the T90 and you can still find NOS of those. Advanced Adapters needs to do something's about that weak shift fork, if they haven't already.
I think the .677 spec is just what it came out to when these were made and it works there. Mine has 0 shims and when bolted up, I got exactly .677. Loose or worn tolerances upstream or downstream may have deviated this, hence the use of shims.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamnalan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2015 at 1:45am
Huh - thanks.

The ATV unit I got from Herm has a bronze shift fork, if anyone is interested about that part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bretto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2015 at 2:01am
I think someone here was going to see about having some bronze forks casted as replacements for their weak AA ones, if there was enough interest. I would think or hope AA would of addressed this by now.
Originals were bronze.

http://www.earlycj5.net/forums/showthread.php?99669-Overdrive-breakage

Edited by bretto - 22 May 2015 at 2:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pjensen641 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2015 at 5:13am
@Joe Friday - Does 5 thou of output shaft runout sound about right?  I also installed my old output gear and it lines up prefect flush with the forward intermediate gear.  To me, this eliminates any causes for the insufficient stick-out  based on something with my tranny.  What do you think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2015 at 5:48am
P Jensen- I don't think you'll have a problem.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pjensen641 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2015 at 3:24pm
Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote turbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar. 2016 at 5:26am
Hey Guys,

I realize its been several months since this was posted up, but I found it while searching for solutions on my ATV overdrive dilemma.  

I bought and installed this unit new from Herm about a year and half ago.  It has been a challenge from day one.  It works great in overdrive, I love that feature.  My problem is and has been popping out of direct drive on acceleration.  It always happens at the worst possible time too, steep hill climbs off-road, accelerating into traffic, etc.

Shortly after installing it, I called Herm for solutions.  His first response was to drive it for several hundred miles to break it in and it should stop jumping out of gear.  After a generous break-in period, Herm's next solution was that I install .080" shims under the barrel gear.  Practically no change in the issue, it still jumps out of direct routinely (unless I physically hold the shifter in gear or tie it back tightly with a bungee cord.   I hate having to bungee it, because I actually shift it from direct-to-OD depending on conditions and traffic.

Anyway, today I pulled the cap screw that holds the shift rail detent spring and ball.  On observation into the detent screw/spring hole, I can see the machined divit in the shift rail is only about half exposed although the shift rail is at the extreme of its travel.  In other words, I don't think the shift rail is moving far enough forward for the detent ball/spring to fully engage.  This tells me theoretically that the case, shift fork, barrel gear, etc or some combination of components need to be shifted one direction or the other in order for full engagement to occur.

BTW, I've engaged Herm several times about this issue and his answer is they are attempting an engineering change solution.   Doesn't help me in the moment though.  I'm frustrated to the point that I may wind up writing the $1000 investment off as a sad lesson learned.

Oh, yes, there is no binding at all with my shifter linkage.  That was the first thing I ruled out.

thanks for any opinions or advice.
Greg

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bretto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar. 2016 at 1:31pm
I bet you have found where the trouble lies. I'd pull the back unit off and see how it functions on the bench. Maybe there's is a casting flaw on something or a burr or something in the way that's not allow full movement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlowPocono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar. 2016 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by turbo turbo wrote:

Hey Guys,

I realize its been several months since this was posted up, but I found it while searching for solutions on my ATV overdrive dilemma.  

I bought and installed this unit new from Herm about a year and half ago.  It has been a challenge from day one.  It works great in overdrive, I love that feature.  My problem is and has been popping out of direct drive on acceleration.  It always happens at the worst possible time too, steep hill climbs off-road, accelerating into traffic, etc.

Shortly after installing it, I called Herm for solutions.  His first response was to drive it for several hundred miles to break it in and it should stop jumping out of gear.  After a generous break-in period, Herm's next solution was that I install .080" shims under the barrel gear.  Practically no change in the issue, it still jumps out of direct routinely (unless I physically hold the shifter in gear or tie it back tightly with a bungee cord.   I hate having to bungee it, because I actually shift it from direct-to-OD depending on conditions and traffic.

Anyway, today I pulled the cap screw that holds the shift rail detent spring and ball.  On observation into the detent screw/spring hole, I can see the machined divit in the shift rail is only about half exposed although the shift rail is at the extreme of its travel.  In other words, I don't think the shift rail is moving far enough forward for the detent ball/spring to fully engage.  This tells me theoretically that the case, shift fork, barrel gear, etc or some combination of components need to be shifted one direction or the other in order for full engagement to occur.

BTW, I've engaged Herm several times about this issue and his answer is they are attempting an engineering change solution.   Doesn't help me in the moment though.  I'm frustrated to the point that I may wind up writing the $1000 investment off as a sad lesson learned.

Oh, yes, there is no binding at all with my shifter linkage.  That was the first thing I ruled out.

thanks for any opinions or advice.
Greg


The problem I had with the ATV overdirive I bought from Herm was very closely related to yours, I think.  With the unit I installed, the problem was the opposite of yours.  I could shift perfectly from direct to overdirve... once.  It was impossible to move the shift lever out of OD into neutral or direct.  I determined that there was a machining defect that allowed the shift rail to move TOO far and allow the synchro dogs to move out of position.
 

My experience with Herm was equally frustrating.  
All of his responses to my requests for a solution implied that I was the cause of the problem.
When I was finally able to isolate the manufacturing defect with no help from Herm, I was offered no suggestion or help in devising a solution.
After fabricating and installing a modification to the shift rail assembly and then providing that solution to Herm, I requested that he might waive his requirement that all orders for replacement parts be paid for in advance of shipment.  He, in his condescending tone, offered to send me the gaskets and bolts I wanted to buy at no charge.
Unsurprisingly, I never received the parts I ordered and never heard from him again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan_289 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar. 2016 at 11:49pm
Well I just ordered a rebuilt overdrive from Herm last week. My tub is off right now so I should be able to tell for sure if it is shifting all the way before the tub goes on. Fingers crossed everything works good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar. 2016 at 12:41am
SlowPocono, your experience at least lets me know the potential for issues is consistent with what I've found. 

I didn't get a chance to look at it today, but in the near future I intend to experiment with it some more.  As I indicated, I can tie the shifter in gear and it works even in some pretty demanding situations on the trail (even with the transfer case in Lo).  My additional fear is not knowing how much gear surface is actually engaging.  I worry about future potential damage due to additional strain.

I went with a brand new ATV unit hoping to avoid any gremlins typical of used equipment, but in hind sight, I wonder now if a rebuilt Warn or Saturn might have been a better choice.  Clearly something just isn't quite right.  I've done a lot of business with Herm over the past few years (rebuild kit for a T90, kit for a D18, heavy duty tie-rods, Floater axle kit for the D44 rear, D27 Power-Lok install kit, and of course this ATV OD).  With exception of this problem with the overdrive and some missing bolts or at least inadequate instructions for the D27 Power-Lok differential install kit, I've been happy with the service he provides. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote turbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar. 2016 at 12:45am
Originally posted by Ryan_289 Ryan_289 wrote:

Well I just ordered a rebuilt overdrive from Herm last week. My tub is off right now so I should be able to tell for sure if it is shifting all the way before the tub goes on. Fingers crossed everything works good.

Ryan,
Based on my experience with this unit, I predict you'll have better luck with the "rebuilt" unit over the new ATV unit.   And of course, since your tub is off, you should be able to better determine how it all shifts and functions.  Good luck with it, I hope you have better success.
turbo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kendall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2017 at 3:13am

Resurrect this to shed some light.  I went through the pop out of gear with Herm.  I set the planetary at .667 with a small shim and it was popping out of gear.  I got out the micrometers and started measuring and the OD case was too thick.  I took all kinds of pictures and sent them to Herm.  He found he had a bad batch of cases.

 
-kendall

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2017 at 1:53pm
Kendall do you know when the bad cases occurred? I bought a 30% from him must be almost 2 years ago and its been sitting on a shelf ever since still all wrapped up.
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