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roto cap valve spring retainers

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mbullism View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Aug. 2016 at 1:48pm
RMC105103 M38 contract replacement L134, I think late '52.

All 8 valve springs have roto cap retainers on the bottom... two of mine are sticky/stuck and don't spin.  I'm not finding them listed for the go devil.

Does anyone know if these are the same as the roto caps listed for the F134 hurricane exhaust valves?




Edited by mbullism - 30 Aug. 2016 at 1:50pm
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Joe Friday View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2016 at 3:13pm
They should be the same. I don't have any access to my files right now. I can check later if you need a concrete answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2016 at 3:49pm
Any help would be appreciated, Joe, but only if it doesn't require a huge hard target search.  

I found some NOS F134 on ebay for short money that should clean up...for under 20 bucks shipped for the pair I'll risk it, but really don't want to chance 40-60 bucks on repop to find out I'm wrong and have to chase it backwards.

I'm feeling like this was a trial or transitional thing for the L134-

MB

ETA: I also posted this question on willysmjeeps, so if I hear back I'll post it here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2016 at 4:43pm
 I used F-head roto-caps on the exhaust valves in my L-head, and I don't remember ever seeing another L-head with them. If I remember right, I had to use the F-head valves as well. I'm not sure the F-head roto-caps would fit on the L-head valves, intake or exhaust, either one.  BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2016 at 6:37pm
The rotocaps were used on the Industrial L-Heads. Bruce is correct that is probably needs the F head valves also, but you already have them.  I'll try to get 'facts' tonight and post them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2016 at 6:43pm
I have gleaned from WesK over to the mjeeps site that there apparently is an early and a late style, though I think the early style may be the standard L134 retainer and the late may be the M3A1 (so F134) style.

Bruce-  the interesting thing is that this is a genset engine, and given everything else I've found I have every reason to believe I may be the first person inside this thing since '52...though I cannot prove it.  (800 hours on the clock, minimal visible wear, standard specs, ODG on the head, valve cover and oil pan gaskets, no motor pool or military rebuild tags)  

The intake and exhaust valves are different, in that the intakes are flat on top and say "IN" (and "WO" as I recall) and the exhaust have a shallow recess on top, and say "EX" and I believe "WO"...my memory is what it is at 52yo, sitting at my desk 20 miles away, lol.  I have to admit I didn't compare them for length or other traits, but i DO know that they are not drastically different...

All 8 having roto caps struck me odd, and three of 8 springs are red, the remaining 5 black with no other visible difference or rhyme or reason for placement.

I'm going to follow the remainder of WesK's leads and see what I can see-

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2016 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by Joe Friday Joe Friday wrote:

The rotocaps were used on the Industrial L-Heads. Bruce is correct that is probably needs the F head valves also, but you already have them.  I'll try to get 'facts' tonight and post them.

Sorry, Joe...was typing- your Industrial engine insight fits as this came out of (and is believed to be original to) a pe-95k genset on a 1951 contract as I recall
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2016 at 9:23pm
So WesK has confirmed my suspicion that the RMC block was built out (valve train, etc) as if the engine was headed for an M38... after selection for service in a genset it would have been pulled from stock and fitted with the industrial head, smaller intake, etc...

so im seeing WO-800827 is listed as a rotator cap for exhaust valves on the M38, though the illustration looks different.  Cap WO-800828 is the standard style non rotating retainer. 

I don't see any rotator cap listed for intake valves, though I seem to have them, lol.

There are not two different exhaust valves listed for the M38, and only one spring listed for intake and exhaust, so it seems that the WO-800827 rotator cap retainer and the WO-800828 standard style retainer are interchangeable.

I guess the next step is to cross reference the WO-800827 with the civi Fhead...though still not sure what to make of the intake valve roto caps.

Originally posted by mbullism mbullism wrote:

I found some NOS F134 on ebay for short money that should clean up...

The early style Fhead (M38A1) exhaust roto caps are the same WO-800827.  The ebay ones are WO-802587 (whick look like what I have), which are a later style Fhead exhaust rotocap (and use a different valve than the exhaust valve listed for the M38 Confused).  Walcks has the later WO-802587 for under 7 apiece, so I may just throw a couple in my next order...except they are out of stock...

(I'm starting to think maybe the thing to do is "lose" the stuck caps on a pair of intake valves and move on, LOL)

MB


Edited by mbullism - 30 Aug. 2016 at 9:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug. 2016 at 3:38pm
And to further confuse things ....
There is really no reason why you cannot go back to installing the  non rotating valves.
If an industrial engine was run on propane then non rotating valves would be normal.

PM me if you need a complete original set of non rotating exhaust valve caps and locks for $10.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep. 2016 at 3:50pm
The 800827 was released to production on 1/9/1950 and looks NOTHING like the 802587 which was released to production 10/21/1950.

I would stay with the 802587, which at the time was supplied by Thompson Products (Think TRW) as part number FR-RA-58A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep. 2016 at 4:02pm
Thanks Joe, those dates fit... I picked up a couple of the 802587 NOS of ebay.  It was a small "risk", lol.  

Though I cannot find them listed in the parts manual for the M38 L134, it has to be them.  At this point the why doesn't matter, so long as they match up (and work Smile )

This is what I have
.
.
this is what I bought (listed as 802587)
.
.
thanks for the backup!

MB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep. 2016 at 4:16pm
PM me your email and I'll send you the documentation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep. 2016 at 4:35pm
I'll take you up on that, thank you. At least I know that these were at available well before the engine was assumed assembled in '52(?), versus having to be some sort of retrofit.

It's also a heads up should I ever need valves or guides for this (to pay special attention)..

Thanks again-

Mike
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