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History of a South African CJ2A |
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JeepSaffer 
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Joined: 26 Sep. 2014 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 1181 |
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 Topic: History of a South African CJ2APosted: 05 Nov. 2014 at 3:37pm |
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I am interested in any history that may be available on my Jeep, I believe it to be 1948.
Serial number as per firewall data plate "CJ-2A 204853" Body number as per firewall data plate "CJ2A BODY 196008" Front frame horn tag is missing, as is the number stamped on the drivers side firewall gusset (or covered with paint). The number on the tailgate side wall is also missing. Engine number is LF11319, located on the boss behind the water pump. However the top half of all the letters are very faint. Additionally, the L is at a very strange angle, leaning forward, and it would not be impossible to imagine that it is actually a "Z", with the top horizontal leg of the Z missing. I have never seen any engine number starting with LF or ZF. The location of the Jeep is currently in South Africa, and it has been here for many, many years. Is there any history of the Jeeps that were brought over here? Who brought them over and for what purpose? One thought I had was that South Africa is commonly abbreviated in world terms with a Z in the country code. ie ZAF. For example the international currency code for the South African Rand is the "ZAR". Is it possible that there was some engine code allocated for Jeeps sent to South Africa? Or maybe there is a far simpler explanation.... I'd be very interested in any of the history that may be lurking out there... Mike
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damar2yxr
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Posted: 05 Nov. 2014 at 8:29pm |
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Here's a shot.......what color is your engine? If it's red it could be a replacement engine. The engine number would then have a 4LR prefix.........soooo can you somehow make what you have look like a 4LR??
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eat,sleep,jeep
Proud father of a Marine, Army Dentist, Navy Pilot and a Princess. LIFE IS GOOD! 43MB,47CJ2-A,48CJ2-A X2,70Jeepster Commando 1/2 cab,84CJ-7, |
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JeepSaffer
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Posted: 06 Nov. 2014 at 6:52am |
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Thanks Damar, as it happens the engine is red, but I am pretty sure that it is not "original" red. Looks like it has had a paint job since original condition. That being said, if it is now red, there is a chance that the PO kept with the same colour?
Anyway, here are two photos of the engine number:  The first photo shows the rather oddly shaped L, but now looking at it in the photo I can't make it out as anything other than an "L". In this photo it doesn't look much like it could be a "Z". It also doesn't look much like there is anything in front of it. The 9 at the end of the number is not real clear in the photo. It is much clearer in the photo below (but still needs some careful work to see it!).  There are some strange markings after the 9, but I can't imagine these are part of the actual number, they seem to just be scratches of some kind. So any other opinion on "LF11319"? Any other ideas on the history of this engine? Would the casting number help? |
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damar2yxr
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Posted: 06 Nov. 2014 at 1:49pm |
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The casting number will tell you if it was a 2A engine or another L134--ie 3A, M-38 MB yada yada.
I would chemically remove all the paint on that boss and see if your markings stand out more. Who knows that engine may have been rebuilt and the deck was resurfaced and the original numbers were machined off.....then new SA numbers put in there....
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eat,sleep,jeep
Proud father of a Marine, Army Dentist, Navy Pilot and a Princess. LIFE IS GOOD! 43MB,47CJ2-A,48CJ2-A X2,70Jeepster Commando 1/2 cab,84CJ-7, |
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JeepSaffer
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Posted: 06 Nov. 2014 at 6:16pm |
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So the engine casting reads as follows:
"641087-L-W7 A N1-CR-N2" Above the N1 portion are cast the letters "CC", and slightly above and to the left of the whole sequence there are the castings "5-13" What does this tell us about this engine? Mike
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1948 CJ2A #204853 in South Africa
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damar2yxr
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Posted: 06 Nov. 2014 at 6:50pm |
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641087 is a 2A and a 3A engine casting number. The other numbers I am not sure of yet....others might chime in or I'll search more later when I have more time.
Did a little more searching....can't find anything more on the other casting numbers on the block. If you search the forum under engine block casting numbers you will find a lot of info....Sean Collins has a thread on casting numbers that is quite informative...suffice it to say your casting number marks your block as a CJ2A-CJ3A block --beyond that unless you can decipher the serial number on the WP boss accurately you might not find all the info you want....... Sometimes assembly dates are stamped on castings. Engines often times have the date stamped on the bottom of the engine right where the oil pan bolts on...should be in the front corner..
Edited by damar2yxr - 06 Nov. 2014 at 8:38pm |
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eat,sleep,jeep
Proud father of a Marine, Army Dentist, Navy Pilot and a Princess. LIFE IS GOOD! 43MB,47CJ2-A,48CJ2-A X2,70Jeepster Commando 1/2 cab,84CJ-7, |
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JeepSaffer
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Posted: 07 Nov. 2014 at 7:53am |
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So I followed damar2yxr's advice and removed the paint on the boss chemically, and the result is REALLY interesting!
Leaving a little bit of paint in the stampings actually helps to make them out a bit clearer. Here is what was revealed:  The L now looks more like an upside down 7. The remaining numbers are far more clear: F 11319. But it is clear too that there are other original smaller numbers underneath, that have been stamped over! They are faint, but could the figure under the L be a J? Under the F is a 2? Under the first big 1 is another smaller 1. I can't see anything under the second big 1, possible also an original smaller 1? A small 3 under the big 3 A small 4 under the third big 1 And a small 3 under the big 9. Thus LF 11319 could have been an original J2 11343? I have done some digital manipulation of the image to remove the big numbers, leaving only the small numbers underneath. Note I have only removed the big numbers in the image, I have not added anything to the small numbers or enhanced them in anyway. This is what it looks like:  Do we agree that we have a plausible J2 11343 engine number here? So here are my new questions: 1. Is the shape of the J consistent with other engine number J's? ie There is no horizontal cross at the top of the letter, just the stem? Is the curve of the J and the hook at the end consistent? 2. Is the prefix J2 a common/normal prefix? 3. Is the number 11343 too short? Are digits missing either side of the 4? How many digits typically make up an engine number? 4. If it were J2 11343, does this tie in with the serial number of 204853, the body number of 196008 and the engine casting of 641087-L-W7 A N1-CR-N2? 5. Any ideas on the strange markings after the 3? I appreciate all your comments. We may be a lot closer to decoding the history of this Jeep! Mike
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1948 CJ2A #204853 in South Africa
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JeepSaffer
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Posted: 07 Nov. 2014 at 9:41am |
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OK, so more digging and some more interesting finds: I have found the CJ2A database at the following link:
Happily, my assumed original engine number (J211343), serial number (204853) and body number (196008) largely ties in with other numbers either side of it. Compare with hauldogz 1948 CJ2A with serial number 205346, body number 198186 and engine number J213540. My body number is 2178 units earlier than hauldogz My assumed original engine number is 2197 units earlier than hauldogz Far too close to just be a coincidence! So do we have consensus? I'm still not quite sure what to actually DO about the fact that my engine has two engine numbers!!! Paint over it again so that the bigger number is the obvious one? I will use the original number for my private knowledge, but better stick with the larger more obvious number for the vehicle registration? I still need to re-register the vehicle seeing as I bought it without papers (no clean title). Suggestions?
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1948 CJ2A #204853 in South Africa
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scoutpilot
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Posted: 07 Nov. 2014 at 9:59am |
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Do the authorities usually inspect a vehicle such as yours for identification/safety purposes? If they do, and are sticklers for accuracy you will probably want to go with the original number. As well, should you decide to sell it, the original numbers add to the provenance.
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damar2yxr
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Posted: 07 Nov. 2014 at 11:40am |
Excellent detective work! The secret has been revealed. The J prefix makes all the difference. There is definitely no 4LR there so we are not dealing with a factory replacement motor. The original color would have been black. Feels good to find out the minutia of your project doesn't it? I would definitely use the "original" number in all further discussions or registrations.
Edited by damar2yxr - 07 Nov. 2014 at 11:54am |
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eat,sleep,jeep
Proud father of a Marine, Army Dentist, Navy Pilot and a Princess. LIFE IS GOOD! 43MB,47CJ2-A,48CJ2-A X2,70Jeepster Commando 1/2 cab,84CJ-7, |
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Bob W
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Posted: 07 Nov. 2014 at 11:43am |
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The engine number looks like J21343? to me. Those large "1"s are not part of the original number.
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JeepSaffer
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Posted: 07 Nov. 2014 at 12:23pm |
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If the number is J21343 (ie the second large 1 is removed), it would solve two mysteries:
1. Why there is a tick/arm at the top of the first 1, but not on the second 1 2. It would even the number spacing out to be more uniform I tend to agree with you. I see on the database that there are 5 digit engine numbers, but 21343 would place mine as a 1946 engine in a 1948 Jeep. It is possible it is not the original engine that came with the Jeep, but that an earlier engine was put in as a replacement at some stage. Is there any other way to definitively date an engine?
Edited by JeepSaffer - 07 Nov. 2014 at 12:36pm |
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1948 CJ2A #204853 in South Africa
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Bob W
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Posted: 07 Nov. 2014 at 1:40pm |
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Look for another digit at the end J21343X
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JeepSaffer
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Posted: 07 Nov. 2014 at 2:32pm |
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I have done some more digital manipulation as per Bob W's suggestion, and removed the second big "1". Still have added nothing, only taken away.
 Really looks to me like it is "J21343". Apart from the unidentified markings following, this is what I am going with for now!
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1948 CJ2A #204853 in South Africa
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damar2yxr
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Posted: 07 Nov. 2014 at 11:51pm |
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I hate to add to your anxiety but if you look at your last picture and really stare at the "number spacing" I think the schmutzy marks after the end "3" are spaced perfectly for another number. That little ( shaped mark sure looks like it belongs there. Take some really fine sand paper..like maybe 800 grit wet/dry or even steel wool and gently rub that area and see if anything develops....
"0" or "6" I'm guessing..................
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eat,sleep,jeep
Proud father of a Marine, Army Dentist, Navy Pilot and a Princess. LIFE IS GOOD! 43MB,47CJ2-A,48CJ2-A X2,70Jeepster Commando 1/2 cab,84CJ-7, |
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Bob W
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Posted: 08 Nov. 2014 at 1:03am |
I agree. And with another digit at the end the engine number fits right in with all the other numbers on this CJ-2A. I also think the large 1 is stamped over the original 1 in that position. |
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JeepSaffer
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Posted: 08 Nov. 2014 at 3:22pm |
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So I went to bed last night, and woke up this morning still bothered by two things: 1. The strange marks after the last digit cannot just be there "by mistake" 2. A 1946 engine number in a 1948 Jeep just does not make sense. I saw too that Damar2yxr and Bob W had exactly the same thoughts.... so it was back to the garage for some more careful cleaning with some steel wool, and a new photo focussing on the last section of the number. This is the photo:   Spacing, style, size and line thickness are all consistent with the other letters. Looks like a "6" to me! Of course it's a new photo so the previous photo editing was lost, I only redid the editing on the preceding "3" to give some scale and spacing to the last figure. So finally, it seems we can put this mystery to rest: original engine number "J213436" This puts to bed the last two issues that were bugging me, being what the last few strange marks were, and how a 1946 engine got into a 1948 Jeep - turns out it's a 1948 engine after all! We are now back within the engine number range as we should be (as it happens only 104 units earlier than Hauldogz engine), and I feel confident that I have my final original engine number. Many thanks to both Damar2yxr and Bob W for providing objective input and advice, and for encouraging me to continue the detective work when I was too hastily claiming victory! Turns out they were right on the money every time! Thanks guys... Here ends this detective story!  Mike
Edited by JeepSaffer - 08 Nov. 2014 at 3:25pm |
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1948 CJ2A #204853 in South Africa
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scoutpilot
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Posted: 08 Nov. 2014 at 5:03pm |
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If originality is your goal, congratulations, you are one of the lucky ones. There hundreds of jeeps out there with motors from either earlier or later years.
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damar2yxr wrote: