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How do I take the drive assembly off of my starter

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47X48 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 July 2008 at 1:25pm
I was sifting through the parts that came with my Jeep and I found a starter for it.  The starter's gear would not turn freely (or at all) I took it apart as far as I could and slightly freed up some parts, enough so that I think a good cleaning could make the starter motor usable, but the starter gearing I believe is broken.   The worm gear type thing the starter gear rides out on has some gouges in it and the gear that would hit the flywheel doesn't travel very far at all. 
 
While looking for a whole new starter I found multiple places selling just the... driving gear(?)  The spring, worm gear looking thing, and the starter gear.This is something I need to replace, but I  can't figure out how to get it off the starter shaft.  There's a little bearing of some sort on there, and I don't want to just yank it off damaging my starter.  I have a bad habit of doing stuff like that, and judging how hard it was to find a starter... I don't want to break this. 
 
I also havea a few other questions. 
 
1. What color were the starters originaly? Mine is currently red like the re-painted body, but it just looks wrong.
 
2.  What is the best way to go about cleaning and rebuilding the starter.  I'm pretty sure the stuck nature is just gunked up grease, after I clean that off, what type of grease would I lube it back up with?  and for cleaning out the housing for the starter, should I only just blow it out as best I can, or is there something better I can do to clean it out?
 
3.  now that I have a starter, I want to bolt it in and  turn over the jeep to see if it will start... but the jeep has been sitting since 1987,  possibly that long without the starter bolted in, is there anyway other than removing  the transmission to see if anything has flopped into the bell housing??  or do I now have to pull the engine?
 
Thanks for any help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2008 at 4:28pm
The Bendix drive on CJ2A is not lubricated. I would recommend first cleaning it really well in a solvent that can evaporate away, then inspect it for a distorted spring or damaged parts. Try running the starter with jumper cables to see if the centrifugal force will engage the counterweighted gear. Cleaning the starter itself is straight forward, lube the bearings with engine oil, make sure the brushes are clean and making contact with a clean commutator.
If the Bendix needs replaced, make sure you get the proper one (right handed spiral). If the spring is bad only, it can be replaced alone.
Terry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote F Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 12:41pm
Answers: 1:   Black... There is a post on here somewhere with the colors for most of the parts and components, do a quick search for Paint color list.
 
2: Might be best to send it out to a good ole time rebuilder...those guys have all the right tooling to remove those big screws holding the field coils in, and they will make sure your starter gives many years of trouble free service. Money well spent in my book. You can always refinish it nicer when you get it back if they do the usual utility painting. Terry also has good advice if you want to tackle it yourself.
 
3: Before you turn over that engine with a starter, turn it over at least two turns with a wrench on the front pulley nut. If you want to be really nice to your engine, pull the plugs, use a spray can of Seafoam rust free up stuff and shoot a bunch into the cylinders with the little straw they give ya. Turn it over with the plugs out until it seems to turn nicely. Do a quick compression check with all plugs out, then go back to making it run. Chances of anything being in the bellhousing from having the starter out depends on how many squirrels and mice you have. If it rotates freely you probably are OK...
 
You may also have other issues like a stuck clutch disc after sitting that long.
If you haven't checked out the tech FAQ section, go to:
http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/tech-faq_forum57.html
for a lot of great stuff you need to know!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 47X48 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 6:08pm
Thanks for the advice.  I've heard a lot about Seafoam, so I guess I should probably pick up a can of the stuff somewhere. 
 
I thought about sending the starter to a proffesional rebuilder,but that's expensive.  Not frightenly so, but if I don't need to right now, I'm going to try and avoid it. I think the main problem is at the Bendix (Google, wikipedia, and dictionary.com failed me on that one... I thought that's what it was called, but all three only returned it as a last name, not as a vehicle part.) and that front bearing the shaft rides on.  If I can't fix it with a new assembly, then I'll send it out for repairs.
 
I'm still wondering how to get the middle bearing off.  I'm assuming the thing that looks like a bell with gear teeth on top is the bendix, and that goes over this bearing, which then connects to... know what? I think I need a diagram!
 
 
Using my new found knowledge that it's a bendix allowed me to find this (now edited by me) diagram.
 
Now that I've found this diagram though, I am extra confused.  I had thought my "Worm Gear Thingy" (The technical name until someone tells me otherwise) was ruined since I couldn't get the gear/bell casting to go all the way (or virtualy any distance at all) down the Worm Gear Thingy.  On mine I thought it was gouged due to a indent that was not smooth and tracked but looking at the diagram, that gouge is shown in it's diagram (under "Designed Gouge?") so it can't be wrong. 
 
Before I just wanted to know how to get the "Bearing?" off, now I'm wondering how does this assembly work exactly?  I had thought it was a smooth worm gear that the gear/bell casting road up when the starter button was pushed, engaging with the flywheel.  Once you stopped putting power to the starter, the flywheel essentialy flung the gear/bell casting down out it's way, and you could the drive off, on your merry way.
 
Judging by some of the tracks drawn in on that diagram, I'm not right, so how does this thing work?
 
Thanks for any help.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 11:28pm
OK, how it works. When the armature starts spinning, the part of the bendix drive with the gear on it lags (inertia, law of conservation of motion, remember?) and  runs up the threads so the gear engages in the flywheel,  it runs out of threads and turns with the armature, and starts cranking the engine. It stays there until the engine fires, the flywheel causes the outer bendix to outrun the starter, and run back down the threads where it parks. The spring is there to absorb the impact of the bendix parking.
Removal involves sliding a little collar back toward the gear and removing a wire c-clip under it, then slide the assembly off.  The collar doesn't show in your diagram, it is further to the right, nearer the end of the shaft.  Kind of hard to explain, but real obvious when you see it.
 
Jonesy
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 47X48 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2008 at 9:28am
So I should be able to slide the geared part back down the threads by hand, and since I can't it's probably broken?
 
If I'm understanding your description of removal right, you're talking about a collar farther down the shaft then shown (on the right)?  On mine I didn't see any collar, and I don't rememeber any spot for a collar evident on the shaft.  I could take off the part with the gears, that is held on by a c-clip in it's leftmost lip (You can see it in the diagram... since it's sectioned it just looks like a little square notch) however once you have the geared part off, the part that runs in the threaded portion (or Worm Geary Thingy as I labeled it) cannot come off because it hits the Bearing.  I can actualy slide down the outer ring of this bearing looking things toward the left of the assembly, but I couldn't see far enough underneith it to find any C-clip, should there be one under there to release, or is there some other methodology.
 
Thanks.
 
Oh, also which way is the starter supposed to turn, looking at the back of the starter (in the vehicle looking towards the firewall) is it supposed to turn clockwise or counter clockwise?  There are a few things I Still don't understand, like the designed in notches in the worm gear (If it just needs to slide smoothly in and out, why are there notches designed in?) and why can the threaded worm gear thingy rotate on the shaft?  It's only designed to rotate one direction, but why would it need to rotate at all if the speed of the engine's flywheel is supposed to fling the gearback out of the way?
 


Edited by 47X48 - 23 July 2008 at 9:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2008 at 2:55pm
The crankshaft goes clockwise when viewed from the front, so the starter Bendix rotates counterclockwise when viewed from the front, facing the firewall.
Try running the starter out of the vehicle with jumper cables after cleaning the Bendix thoroughly with brake cleaner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2008 at 3:06pm

The first question,  not necessarily. Some of the bendix drives had a latch so they would not disengage if the engine didn't fully start. I believe your notches are part of the mechanism to accomplish this latching.  Anyway it will release at a certain speed through centrifugal force if I remember correctly.  I don't know how to release it, other than put it back on the motor and start it. The Bendix was not designed to be dissambled and repaired, only replaced.  I took a couple apart back when just to see how they worked, way to long ago to remember details.

 The Bendix drive was used from earliest electric start up through 60's at least, even later in aircraft engines (Lycoming). They engineered "improvements" over the years and I don't remember which goes with what.  Seems like the CJ2A starter should have a C ring with a retainer sleeve, about 3/4 or 7/8 inch from the end of  shaft. The whole bendix drive should slide off, might be a roll pin involved if there is no C clip (not a flat clip, it will look like a 10 or 12 guage wire, under what looks like a sleeve).
If this doesn't ring any bells I'll dig out the service manual a bit later, have to run now.
 
Jonesy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2008 at 3:46pm
OK I'm back. Service manual is no big help, "do not remove from armature shaft...do not immerse in solvent...do not lubricate". It does indicate that the CJ2A starter should have the bendix that is retained by the C clip though, and a half moon key in the shaft keeps the bendix turning with the shaft. So, you might need a puller or press, or with luck just some tapping with a soft hammer to persuade it to come off (after removing the C clip of course).  The book also verified that the Bendix should be the latching type, and that the grooves you mention are part of the latching mechanism. You haven't ruined anything by latching the gear, but it won't unlatch until it spins up to speed.
 
Later model Willys had a bendix which was secured by roll pin on the starter side of the big spring. HTH
 
Jonesy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 47X48 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2008 at 4:07pm

Thanks for the info, now I feel a lot better about my starter.  I'm gonna clean off the benedix with break cleaner as suggested, probably hit the housing with a wire wheel, put a bit of axle grease on the shaft (have some left over from my motorcycle) then cross my fingers and hope it works!

 
Again, thanks for the help and  the explinations, it's been much apreaciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2008 at 9:13pm
WHOA!  Hold everything!  Better first figure out which starter drive you actually have.

The diagram posted above is a "Folo-thru" drive.  It was NOT originally used on CJ-2A starters.  The CJ2A starter used a "standard" bendix drive, like this:


Which one do you have?

The maintenance procedures are entirely different.

Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 47X48 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2008 at 11:32am
The image I found looks exactly like the starter I had found in my jeep.  If the "folo thru" drive isn't original, which version of the jeep did it come from?  And is there any way to find out if my starter is a 12 volt instead of a  6 volt?  That would be my main worry. 
 
After reading the thread on ring gears, I know there was different number of teeth on the starter for later engines, but the starter I have in hand has 9 so I presumed it must be right... guess I presumed a bit much there.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2008 at 11:03am
Originally posted by 47X48 47X48 wrote:

The image I found looks exactly like the starter I had found in my jeep.
Might be best then to figure out which starter & ring gear you have.

Stock CJ-2A starter, Autolite MZ-4113, used a 10-tooth pinion & 97 tooth flywheel.  Later starters used a 9-tooth pinion w/124 or 129 tooth flywheel.  There's been many times a 9-tooth starter drive has been found in use w/a 97-tooth flywheel.  It may work for a while, but the gears don't mesh properly, and can lead to more trouble down the road.

The Folo-Thru drive wasn't used on Willys until sometime after '48.  It's first listed in the '53 Mechanics manual, excerpt follows:

NOTICE all the heavily emphasized warnings!

Sean


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2008 at 11:32am
The reference to a CJ-3A in the 1953 Mechanics Manual leaves out an important bit of information. The serial number prefix was omitted. The serial number should be 452-GB1 30973. This is a mid year 1952 CJ-3A when the starter changed to an MCH-6203 using a 129 tooth ring gear. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2008 at 12:13pm
Bob:
Quote The reference to a CJ-3A in the 1953 Mechanics Manual leaves out an important bit of information.
Didn't really leave it out, just wasn't pertinent to the maintenance procedure. The procedure is describing servicing the Folo-Thru drive, regardless of which vehicle it's on.

I posted it to emphasize the DO'S/DONT's and warnings regarding servicing, most of which 47X48 had already busted! Wink

Always good to have an FSM handy when working on unknown parts.

Sean
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