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Transmission crossmember mods?

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JeepSaffer View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 9:08am
Hi guys,
 
I would appreciate some advice on the transmission crossmember for my '48. From what I have seen from others photos, mine has been modified by adding some support at each end on the top of the crossmember, and then a vertical bracket at each end which now mounts vertically to the outside of the frame. I think the original design was to bolt the crossmember up to the bottom of the frame, is this correct?
 
 
The addition of the horizontal piece at each end has lowered the crossmember by the thickness of the piece that has been added. I haven't measured it but this looks to be around 6mm or 8mm. (1/4" to 1/3" if you are metrically challenged.... Wink). This is probably why the transfer case seems to have an additional rubber support to lift it back up again.
 
 
 
Do either of these rubber supports look original, or are they both installed by bubba?
 
Then it seems that the transmission has needed to have a spacer installed underneath it to take up the space between it and the lowered crossmember....
 
 
Can anyone confirm that the "Z" shaped plate is original and intended to be there, but the spacer underneath is not original and an addition?
 
My suspicion is this:
Lowering the cross member through the modified side supports has required spacers to be installed to support both the transmission and transfercase. However, the tranny/transfercase spacers are too thick and have lifted the tranny/transfer case more than they have been lowered. The reason I say this is that the tub was lifted off the frame at most points of attachment through washers or a few layers of rubber pads. And the clutch and brake pedals don't clear the floor holes in the tub very well - they rub at the bottom of the holes, and the holes have actually been torn open at the bottom.
 
Once I understand what is going on, and what is original, I will know how to fix it. It seems some well  meaning modifications to strengthen the crossmember may have had some far reaching and unintended consequences!
 
Thanks in advance for your input.
 
Mike
 


Edited by JeepSaffer - 17 Sep. 2015 at 11:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe DeYoung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 3:05pm
Hi Mike,
 
Bummer, you have a mess if you're looking for it to be original. 
 
The original 2A cross member is not mounted directly to the bottom of the frame but rather is bolted with horizontal fasteners and one vertical fastener to a bracket riveted to the side of the frame. Your frame has had the bracket removed and your cross member had been cut off and is now to short. The bracket was originally riveted where your three horizontal bolts are now.
 
The adapter plate and rubber mount plate underneath the transmission is correct. The bottom rubber mount under the transfer case front housing is correct and the upper rubber spacer is not. Only use the bottom rubber mount.
Joe DeYoung
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 3:19pm
There were different crossmember designs from the MB through the 2A. 640214 and 647016.
Your photos look like the 640214 was adapted to fit the 647016 application.
I needed a replacement crossmember and the 640214 was shipped and would not fit as trying to raise it up to the frame the trans and tc were jammed to the floor with a gap still at the frame rails. I returned it and the vendor found a good used one (647016) that was proper.
That's my guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe DeYoung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 4:13pm

Oh, that reminds me. There is an early and late 2A cross member that is not reflected in a part number change as well, which is different from the MB to 2A change. The difference is in the tab for the brake return spring. The early member has the tab straight up and the later has it angled to the driver side to make room for rear exit exhaust. So if you have rear exhaust, make sure you have the correct member to accommodate that. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 4:16pm
Mike,
Here's a couple of photos I took when I was replacing my pedal assembly. You can see the bracket where the cross member should be.
 
 
 
In this pic the cross member is still bolted on and the pedal assembly has not been cut off yet. The part with the cross member is cut off a little, but I think you can get the gist of it.
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 4:25pm
Thanks guys,
I'm not too worried about originality, but I am worried about the tub sitting high on the frame (possibly required due to lack of clearance with the tub floor, as per Terry's experience), and then the pedals don't fit through the tub floor as they should.
 
Can anyone post a picture of the original cross member side brackets, or how the cross member is originally supposed to attach to the frame? As I say I'm not in it for the sake of originality, but I do want to make sure the tranny, transmission, tub and pedals all fit properly. I might be able to make something up, but need to know what I'm aiming for!
 
Mike
 
Edit: Thanks Stan, I was writing my reply before you posted your pictures above. So some of my comments may seem out of place. It's a timing thing!
 


Edited by JeepSaffer - 17 Sep. 2015 at 4:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by JeepSaffer JeepSaffer wrote:

 
Can anyone post a picture of the original cross member side brackets, or how the cross member is originally supposed to attach to the frame? As I say I'm not in it for the sake of originality, but I do want to make sure the tranny, transmission, tub and pedals all fit properly. I might be able to make something up, but need to know what I'm aiming for!
 
Mike
 
 
Mike,
The bracket in my picts above are original. The look the same on both sides.
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 4:30pm
Stan, you beat me to it by a few minutes. Thanks Smile
 
So I see how the cross member is attached to the bracket. The bracket does not look welded to the frame at all. Is it only held on by the single bolt at the top to the tub?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 4:50pm
Bracket is welded on. If not, as soon as  you unbolted the tub, the transmission would fall out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 5:29pm
Of course. Makes perfect sense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Sep. 2015 at 6:49pm
Since the drive train is technically lowered by about ½”, the tub would need to be dropped ½” to make the drive train line up with everything.  I’m not sure there is a full ½” to drop…even if the rubber body mounts are completely removed.

You could try it, but this would likely cause a conflict with the clutch and brake pedals.  You might have to enlarge the holes.  You may also have minor issues with fender alignment.

What bothers me is the transmission mount is the correct thickness, but the transfer case mount is too thick.  To me this would be twisting the drive train and might throw the shifters toward the driver side…causing another shifter and tub alignment issue.  Although, this is probably fairly minor.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep. 2015 at 3:24am
Tim,
  The transmission mount looks good, as you say, so does the bracket that bolts to the bottom of the transmission, but there's a spacer between the mount and the bracket that doesn't belong there.
  What I'm thinkin' is, if the spacers in the trans mount and t/case mount make the drivetrain so high that the body has to be spaced upwards, throwing the pedal holes and others off, maybe the crossmember, whatever it's origin, is not that far off. Maybe removing the spacers and leaving the crossmember where it is will allow the body to be lowered to its proper position. ???   BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep. 2015 at 10:25am
Thanks guys for the various input. This has been really helpful.
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

What I'm thinkin' is, if the spacers in the trans mount and t/case mount make the drivetrain so high that the body has to be spaced upwards, throwing the pedal holes and others off, maybe the crossmember, whatever it's origin, is not that far off. Maybe removing the spacers and leaving the crossmember where it is will allow the body to be lowered to its proper position. ???   BW
Bruce, you have pretty much summarised my thinking. The transmission APPEARS to be too high, as evidenced by the raised tub off the frame, and the pedal holes being off. At the same time there appears to be at least one extra spacer underneath the transfer case. If the spacers are removed, lowering the transmission and T/C, maybe the tub could be lowered back to where it should be?
 
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

Tim,
  The transmission mount looks good, as you say, so does the bracket that bolts to the bottom of the transmission, but there's a spacer between the mount and the bracket that doesn't belong there.
 
 
Bruce, are you seeing an "extra" transmission spacer in addition to the transmission mount and bracket? Others have suggested the transmission mounting looks correct and only the transfer case mountings have additional rubbers inserted??? Here is another picture... Are you suggesting that A and C are correct but B is an additional non-original spacer that could be removed?
 
 
At the end of the day, our reference should be the frame, because everything bolts to the frame, right? So if my crossmember holds the transmission and transfer case at the correct height relative to the frame then everything else, including tub, should be correct. Perhaps this is what we should be confirming...
 
Does anyone have their tub off and is able to measure from a level concrete floor to the bottom of the frame rail, and then from the concrete floor to (for example) the transfer case rear cover top bolts. The difference would then give the correct height of the transfer case rear cover bolts above the bottom of the frame. I can do the same measurement on mine to see if I am in the right ballpark or not.
 
There was also concern raised that only the transfer case might be lifted with the additional rubber and not the transmission, which would mean it might be rotated on the crossmember, or lifted on one side only. So maybe the following measurements to confirm once and for all:
- Floor to bottom of frame on left side (looking forward)
- Floor to centre of top left transfer case rear cover bolt
- Floor to centre of top right transfer case rear cover bolt
- Floor to lowest point of transfer case bottom cover
- Floor to bottom of frame on right side (looking forward)
 
If these measurements can be supplied, it would be highly appreciated... heck, I will even buy you a beer the next time you are in town!!! Wink
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep. 2015 at 2:04pm
Mike - Joe is right and your first picture shows that the new vertical piece that has been welded on to the end of the transmission support to attach it to the frame rail uses the three holes originally used for the rivets for the "stock" bracket. If you look in Smfulle's photobucket album his image of the painted bracket/pedal assembly clearly shows one of the rivets originally used to attach the bracket to the frame.

If you wanted to go back to stock, all you have to do is buy two of the brackets, bolt them in place using these rivet holes, and then pick up a stock transmission support crossmember. As Joe also says - your crossmember has been shortened. 

I know you said that being "stock" isn't the issue - just getting correct clearances and alignments - but it would be the quickest and simplest way out. Plan B would be to use what you've got and mount your shortened crossmember (minus the horizontal additions) to the underside of the frame rail - just like on a CJ3A-CJ5. Send me a pm with your email and I'll send you some photos of my stripped down M38A1 to show you what I mean - I've done it the opposite way round and used a modified CJ2A crossmember (because I couldn't get an M38A1 one here in the UK).

PS - yes, B is a non-original addition.


Edited by Vince - 18 Sep. 2015 at 2:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe DeYoung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep. 2015 at 3:01pm
Mike,
The transmission mount (B & C) is one piece.... a piece of rubber with a plate bonded to the top and bottom with studs sticking out both top and bottom. The ears on the mount look twice as thick as normal but the rubber between them looks thin as well so maybe that's a variation in a reproduction part. I don't have any new ones on the shelf but my used original measures about 1.06" thick.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep. 2015 at 3:12pm
Thanks Vince, I have been through many ideas of how to return what I have to the correct clearances. The options are fairly clear to me.
 
Originally posted by Vince Vince wrote:

... all you have to do is buy two of the brackets, bolt them in place using these rivet holes, and then pick up a stock transmission support crossmember.
Unfortunately here in South Africa buying two brackets and picking up a stock transmission support crossmember is easier said than done. These parts are extremely hard to get here, and importing bulky heavy metal pieces from the USA is not really feasible. Even then it seems I could get a piece that is not correct. Return shipping from SA to the USA is enough to make you quit for good!
 
Originally posted by Vince Vince wrote:


Plan B might simply be to use what you've got and mount your shortened crossmember (minus the horizontal additions) to the underside of the frame rail as it would be on a CJ3a-CJ5. Send me a pm with your email and I'll send you some photos of my stripped down M38A1 to show you what I mean.
 
An even simpler plan B would be to use my existing crossmember with the horizontal additions. In which case I should, in theory, just have to raise the transmission and TC by the same thickness of the horizontal additions welded on to the top of each end of my crossmember. Which is probably what the PO was always intending to do. That is in THEORY.
 
But the facts suggest he never got it right and it would be awesome to have some measurements to be able to CONFIRM this theory before I paint up my frame and tub, fix everything in place, and then find it still doesn't fit and requires modifications.
 
It will probably take somebody with their tub off 5 mins to take the measurements and I'm asking the helpful folk on this site to help me out, which will enable me to move forward with more certainty.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep. 2015 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Vince Vince wrote:

Mike - Joe is right and your first picture shows that the new vertical piece that has been welded on to the end of the transmission support to attach it to the frame rail uses the three holes originally used for the rivets for the "stock" bracket. If you look in Smfulle's photobucket album his image of the painted bracket/pedal assembly clearly shows one of the rivets originally used to attach the bracket to the frame.
 
Mike,
I'm doing all my posts from work and not actually looking at my jeep. Sometimes the memory fails me. Vince is correct in that the original bracket is riveted on rather that welded. 
Here's the picture he referenced.
 
Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep. 2015 at 3:57pm
Mike - you're a difficult man to please LOL Lucky for you my wife has left for work and given me a list of things to do - so all displacement activities welcomed!

Floor to bottom of frame on left side (looking forward) - 13.3cm (measurement taken aft of the transmission mounting, mid-point between it and the first frame/body mounting bracket)

Floor to centre top left transfer case rear cover bolt - 2.1cm

Floor to centre top right transfer case rear cover bolt - 2.5cm (the floor rises up here towards the middle of the transmission tunnel)

Floor to lowest point of transfer case bottom cover - 20cm (taken from very edge of/just to right of transmission tunnel where the floor is flat).

Floor to bottom of frame on right hand side (looking forward) - 13.3cm (taken from mid point between transmission mounting and first body/frame mounting bracket - as for 1st measurement).

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