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diagnosing difficult starting

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cekees View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cekees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: diagnosing difficult starting
    Posted: 06 Dec. 2021 at 5:31pm
I had to replace the ring gear and starter about a year ago on my 48 CJ2A. The ring gear was stripped and that starter was also bad. Before the ring gear/starter replacement, I could start it reliably as long as the starter engaged on the good part of the ring gear. I went back with the correct starter and ring gear from Walck's. I did not do it myself, but the mechanic that did it is solid. Since then, however, I noticed that if the battery isn't near 100% charge, it's difficult or impossible to start. It's progressively gotten worse to the point where I really can't start it now. I get the distinct impression that it fires better after I let off the starter button.  I checked the front plug (just grounded on block) and there is an orange spark. I put my 20 amp tractor charger on it and left it on while I was cranking, and it did fire up yesterday. I put a new set of champion plugs in it, but I don't think they're the issue. This engine still has a very old ignition coil with the resistor on the block.  Would appreciate any suggestions on the next thing to test.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec. 2021 at 6:16pm
By difficult starting, do you mean slow cranking?
Stan
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cekees View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cekees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec. 2021 at 6:23pm
No, it turns over strongly. It just doesn't seem to be firing well or at all, though as I mentioned, it sparks if I pull the front plug and ground it to the frame and I have gotten it to fire and run for short periods of time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec. 2021 at 6:25pm
The starter and ring gear probably isn't your issue, but you don't say whether it is turning over good, or dragging. 

An "orange spark" is a weak spark. I suspect something in the ignition system. I would first check for a good ground, then check the condition and gap of the breaker points. A lot of the condensers sold today, even by some of the well known suppliers, are imported junk and unreliable. They usually work for a while and then fail, but usually when they do fail it won't start at all. 

I found good quality "Blue Streak" brand points and condenser sets at Classic Military Vehicles "www.jeep1942.com" 

If it will run at all I doubt the coil is bad.    


Edited by Oldpappy - 06 Dec. 2021 at 6:28pm
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cekees View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cekees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec. 2021 at 6:42pm
It's not dragging at all. I would say it's turning over good. Any particular connections I need to check for having a good ground? Meaning just the ground cable from the battery to the frame or other ground connections? On the points and condenser, any tricks on testing them? My dad would always just carry an extra set of points, but I had read some other posts warning of junk new parts and didn't want to just go replacing parts to diagnose this. I just don't have much experience with the ignition system.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec. 2021 at 7:33pm
The good news is your starter and ring gear have nothing to do with your problem.

Sounds like you need to do a tune up. If you do not have a service manual you should invest in one. Tune up specs and procedures are covered by the manual.

Have you taken a look at the points to make sure they are opening fully and are not burnt or corroded? 

You can clean up the contacts with a proper file and reset the gap which will sometimes help.

I suggest you go ahead and order a good tune up kit (points, condenser, rotor and cap), and give your Jeep a tune up. I already mentioned where you can get quality parts.
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec. 2021 at 7:48pm
how long has the fuel been in it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec. 2021 at 9:19pm
  I’ve seen a few cases where the starter was in poor shape or the battery was weak, or both, neither one of which was readily apparent. The starter would turn the engine in a seemingly good fashion but the starter was drawing so many amps from the battery that there wasn’t enough current left to make a good spark. Jumping or leaving a charger on while cranking may compensate for it. I’d say have your battery and starter tested by someone who has the correct test equipment and knows what they are doing. 
BW 
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Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec. 2021 at 7:28am
What Bruce said. If you can, find out how many amps the starter is pulling.

I would not replace parts just to replace them. Lets find out the issue(s) first.

Look at the points with you own eyes. Are they burned or are they shiny? Do they open about the thickness of a matchbook?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec. 2021 at 8:27am
Originally posted by cpt logger cpt logger wrote:

 Do they open about the thickness of a matchbook?
 
if you don't have a matchbook handy use an old fashioned .020 feeler gageWink


Edited by muley - 07 Dec. 2021 at 10:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec. 2021 at 10:15am
Set the ignition components per the Manual 😮

1) Points, replace, and only use napa echlin, or Standard ignition parts… anything purchased on line cheap is CRAP!.
2) Condenser.. read no 1 again!
3) replace the ignition wires with COPPER CORE WIRES, if you have modern fiber core wires that itself could be your issue, they work for awhile but in time fail.
4) ignition coils rarely fail, I doubt that is an issue.
5) ignition timing, if your distributor advance weights and springs are wore excessively that needs to be corrected, as it throws off the timing when timed with a light.

Lee😉
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cekees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec. 2021 at 11:59am
Thanks All. Sounds like this is my "opportunity" to work my way through the ignition system. I do have the service manual and will try to proceed with the tune up without replacing anything I don't have to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cekees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec. 2021 at 6:45pm
Update: the mechanic who replaced the starter apparently replaced the condenser, but the contacts on the points were gone and the connection to the copper lead was mangled--couldn't tell if the points were older than the condenser or not. I replaced points and condenser with blue streak parts and the engine cranked right up with starting fluid. After starting, however, I can't keep it running. Pretty sure it's not getting fuel. I'm afraid it sat up for too long, so I'm planning to clean the carburetor next.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Michaeltru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec. 2021 at 8:02pm
Disconnect fuel line at carb.  Crank engine and see if you’re getting good flow of gas to carb.  Go from there.  Another thread about similar symptoms.   Good luck
Mike in AZ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec. 2021 at 8:04pm
HOW OLD IS THE FUEL?
Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IronAge52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec. 2021 at 1:23am
yes today's fuel lasts about 6 months . after that its worthless . when is the last time you took  took a compression check?
on jeeps I don't use often I use aviation gas,  LL100,   almost lasts for ever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec. 2021 at 7:18am
Like gearwrencher, I try to use 100LL avgas on all of my small engines & rarely used rigs. IME, It will last for at least 5 years.

 
Heck, if I can find it I use 80/87 avgas.

I also avoid any ethanol in my fuel, except for my newer rigs that get driven at least weekly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cekees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec. 2021 at 12:33pm
The fuel is partly 8 months old. I did put in a couple of gallons of ethanol free gas while I've been working on getting it started again. After disconnecting the line at the carburetor I can verify a good flow of gas to the carburetor. I used a clean ziplock back to collect the pumped fuel and noticed some black debris, but I'm not sure if it's coming from the line or just off the threads that were exposed when I disconnected. These are relatively new steel fuel lines. With about a three-second spray of starting fluid or a little gas down the carburetor it runs for a few seconds, but no combination of choke or throttle adjustment I've tried seems to keep it running.  I appreciate the suggestions on aviation fuel. After I get this issue fixed I think I will do that. 
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