T-98 / T-18 trans to L134 bellhousing

Also, I read the whole thread but may have missed it; what was the reason for using the t-98 case but swapping the t-18 guts?  I saw the front of the case mounts weren't quite lining up on your bellhousing, was that the reason?  Did the t-98 case bolt to the bellhousing better?

Thanks

      Last night is slid the L134 Willys bell housing over the indexing front bearing retainer adapter, and bolted it up to the T98 / T18 mix  T18.    The Mix !!    You can only imagine the idea's i have in my brain which is not yet on paper.   I wanted to get a photo to share of the Trans / Bell-housing pair.

   Above:   IH Scout T-18 input cut down to the T-90 template, and T-90 Throw-out bearing and Carrier.   Note:   the Carrier needed to be cut back 1/4-inch to move the Throw-out Bearing rear-ward because of the "Coffee Cup Coaster" adapter / brg retainer moves things forward approx. 1/4-inch.

   Above:    threw my Starrett dial indicator on the Scout T-18 Output for Run-Out.   Was spot-on !

   Above:    Look into my One-Eye  !!     hahahaha

Amazing how perserverence and lack of patience does pay-off after days and dayz or getting Dayzed !!   LoL

The new throwout fork i ordered from Peter DeBella and most of my other 'stuff' (goodies).

Funny how for us big boys, the Willy's parts supplier's are like Candy Stores.    hahahaha  _ _ kids !

   Above:    mock-up of the Bell-housing with throw-out brg and carrier assembly in place, but nothing pressed together.

     Note:    If you look closely at the Willys Service Manual, you will see very clearly, the nodule for the throw-out brg carrier "return-spring" is near the rear of the carrier.

Most all carrier's i found showed the nodule near the Front.    The Best Fit sold by DeBella is the only one i found in my internet searches with the nodule at the rear, giving me room on the front for the bearing seat to be cut-back the required 1/4" for this whole apparatussus to work.     snicker.

     Above:    please note this set-up is not for Sissies.   the Ford truck T-98 case and bell housing flange bolts and holes are 9/16" diameter.    Overkill, but it is what i drug in in my parts gathering, which i did before doing any Research of what I was looking for.    Don't we all ?    hahaha

   Above:     I'll be go to Hell.    The Dream i constructed hundreds of times in my brain since 1984 has come to Fruition and Reality.    If you want to know the real truth,  i would have been screwed if it were not for Moser Engineering's willingness to cut my input shaft, and my machinist, Mark, @ A&A Welding and Machine for his willingness to tackle my menagerie.    good good stuff.

     Above:    Modified IH Scout / Ford mix Borg Warner T-18 top view.

      I miraculously discovered an answer to the Big Question i had of the two thicknesses of front input shaft bearings.

      Each article i read on the net has some good information, but many do not go into elaborate detail on each proper step of re-assembly.  My Big Question up until Sunday, March 21st was:

    What one thing determines using the Thick .905" or the Thin  .790" bearing ?

The Input Shaft (Driven Gear) groove for the bearing retainer clip determines which front bearing is to be used !     I guess I somehow must have overlooked this on all of the articles i've read or seen on videos i've watched on uTube.

      If you want the answer of how i discovered this ?    simple simon, i tried installing the thin bearing part way, but not All-the-Way enough to install the retainer clip, and pulled it back off thinking I needed the wider bearing to "push" the driven gear back into the 3 / 4 Synchronizer assembly only to find out the retainer clip groove location will only accept either the Thick or the Thin of the two bearings.

      I have the Input Shaft removed, and i pulled the thick bearing off of it after dinner, and will hopefully find time this week to dive-in again to see how the Thin bearing works out.

( the Thick bearing wouldn't allow room for the retainer clip, So I have the THIN BEARING INPUT SHAFT ).   Remember, this is a Close-Ratio 4:1 granny 1st gear IH Scout innards being placed into the Ford T-98 case.   The cases both measure the same length.

For some suspicious reason, I am probably going to disassemble the trans mainshaft again looking for a mysterious "gap" between the Input gear and the 3-4 Synchronizer assembly.

      I spent 4-partial-days woodcutting last week because the free Pine was available, so i have not had the opportunity to properly focus on getting this transmission fully assembled.

       More later next time, so no answers today beyond my discovery that the Input Shaft retainer clip groove dictates which front "308" series bearing is to be used.

      Len

    Hmmm

    

So, to check for this "Squash" syndrome thing, I did some Checking !!   _ _ with my trusty mic:

    measuring the slot on the input shaft where I may insert a "squash-eliminator" plate to use during installation of the front bearing.   measured close to 0.180"  nearly 3/16" it appears.

     measuring gap with 4th gear snycro ring removed.

     measuring gap between rear face of Input Shaft and front face of 3rd / 4th syncro hub.

Yep, there is an obvious difference that the syncro holds the shaft forward away from the syncro hub.

    4th gear (direct) syncro ring with painted notches.   _ _ _ just me.

Hey, i paid good money for this wrecking yard style paint marking pen, so i'm using it.    haha LoL

Gap between the rear face of input shaft to 3rd gear front face:  (no needle bearings installed).

with brass syncro ring removed  =  0.216"

with brass syncro ring installed  =   0.260"

End result:   I found there to be about 0.005-inch with rounding, squash possible !

I remember reading in another build thread somewhere in my 'bookmarks' but I failed to isolate it into a folder Specific to "input shaft Support", so i haven't found it yet.   I have a bazillion bookmarks with info related to the T-18 Borg Warner transmission, and i trying to find anything is overwhelming.  Ugh

     Ok, so Here are some interesting SIMILARITIES between the T98 and T18 internals:

The "needles" that the T18 Countershaft rides on are the same as the needles used in the front of the mainshaft to input shaft (driven gear).   Technical terms like "driven gear" drive me Knutz !

Needle measurements i get:  0.0187" dia. x 0.986" long, whether new or used.

Did i use the new needles which came from a "small parts kit" with no name on label.   hell No !!

I am re-using known good needles which are probably OEM Borg Warner.   Being superstitious, i prefer using known-good components rather than imported un-known's.

Personally, i haven't had satisfactory luck with Crown gaskets whether carburetor or trans.

     I like speaking in Laymen's terms like the daily mechanic.     hahahaha (knuckle buster wrench) !!

From wrestling with the heavy gear sets, my finger nails are broken back to the pink.   As Always !!

And skinned knuckles is a given each week.

     Ok so Thursday, March 11th I was wanting to check a few things, so i installed the needle bearings into the rear of the Input Shaft to check Fitment to the front nubber of the Mainshaft.   Hey, i used light Napa general purpose wheel bearing grease to stick the needles (22) of them, and then light oil on the surface of the front mainshaft nubber, and stuck the two together to check "Wobble" at the front pilot-bearing end of the Input Shaft.    WoW  !!   I am impressed  !!   not more than 1/16" sideways movement, so much tighter fit than expected.    Also, i measured the diameter of the hole in the rear of the input shaft to be 1.510".

measured the O.D. of the Mainshaft nubber that rides inside the needles to be 1.135" O.D. x 1" long.

      Another thing i Learned upon inserting the Input and Mainshaft into the Ford T98 case:

I could not get the mainshaft nubber into the rear of the input shaft, with the Input inserted into the case prior to installing the main shaft assembly !!!!

      What i have learned in the past is:     many manual transmission input shafts have a notch cut into the teeth that the syncro ring meshes with which will allow insertion clearance past the cluster gear teeth while inserting the mainshaft from the front.    Bingo !!

    This photo shows the clearance "notch" in the input shaft allowing the shaft to be inserted from the front of the transmission case after the Main Shaft assembly has been carefully lowered into the case and supported on the input end with mechanic's wire, and supported in the output end with a block of some sort (I used a plastic cap).

  

      This was the procedure that I used:

      I suspended the front of the mainshaft assembly with mechanic's wire nearest to center that I could (for insertion into the female end of the input shaft).   I propped-up the rear of the Main shaft assembly at Output end with a plastic spray cap.   I then very carefully insterted the Input Shaft through the hole in the front of the T98 Case, being sure the "notch" was on the bottom and clearing the cluster teeth as i slowly rotated the input while working it back.    Make certain the notch in the syncro rings matches up the the "clips" in the 3rd / 4th syncro-hub and shifting ring.

I don't think the input shaft would go in if the syncro isn't lined up with the clips.

      Now,  I have a confession to make:

     I have splayed needles everywhere in my assembly area.   No kidding !! 

  

Remember, when i was removing the clip to access the 3rd / 4th gear syncro assembly, the clip shot off and bounced of my stomach and ricochyed over off the bench.    That sucker is a GONER !!!

Well, when i reached over to grab my flashlight to compile a 'search', the clip was hanging from the magnet on the base of my flashlight  !!    Go Figure.

     I wonder how many more needles i will find throughout 2021 shop cleaning excursions ?    LoL

     Here is the Deal guys:      All of the needles measure identical.    Good News !!

Upon close measure, i couldn't find any differences between the old and the new.

Me -  being supersticious,  i reused all the old original BW Countershaft and Input Shaft needles from the IH Scout T18 internals.    I always reuse those parts which appear serviceable.

Did i mention earlier a Similarity between the GM SM465 and Warner T18  ???

They both share the same rear output bearing.   They look IDENTICAL.   How's that for Apples !!!

      Because i do happen to have disassembled both the SM465 and T18 side by side, i can very clearly see the differences, but very similar.

     this photo shows in 'yellow' the original line of the Ford T98 case.   I used my 225 mig using steel wire to build-up the necessary area so the IH Scout t-case Adapter Plate will match up.

Yes, i had to make a gasket to match with the IH Scout plate.  The gasket i purchased from an online vendor was made by Crown, and was Waaayy out of spec to use.   What a p*sser.

Using the mig machine, the weld in quick stitches lays material down so fast the transmission doesn't know what hit it.     hahahaha    Zap  Zap  peen zap peen zapp zapp peen.   then hand machine the surface with a large bastard file.     slow and Care-Full.

   Well, i've been freezing my butt even with the propane portable heater burning one side of me while I chip ice off the other side.    Yep, knumb fingers, and all _ _ _ you know the drill.

 Currently, i need to source a new rear Mainshaft bearing, and will probably make some local phone calls first before i place an order online.

      Oh, yep,  i've been having starting issue's with my Ford 460 in a '78 for Van.

The other day the engine was kicking back against the starter.   hmmm,  what the heck !!!! ???

Yesterday, i pulls the spark plugs (no not Willy's related, but similar addiction and symptoms) and checked them all with my handy "spark-checker" tool.   The spark checker is the Briggs 3.5hp push mower !!    yep, i was on the spark end, and my wife was on the pull-rope end.   All eight spark plugs sparked.   Hmm.  why was the engine kicking back against the starter and stalling the cranking ?

     Just for Grins, i decided to see what compression one of the cylinder's is pushing.   175 psi !!

But while attempting to turn over the engine against the one cylinder with the compression gauge in place the engine bumped up against the gauge the second revolution after hitting 175 the first rev, and the Starter STALLED OUT  !!!!

      Now we know what I will be working on today.    Yep, the hopeful removal of the 460 Starter, to then take it in for exchange for a rebuilt unit.   ( I know, i dislike refurb's but repops are nothing special.

What I need to address is the oil return hole and galley from the front bearing retainer back into the transmission case.

     So, for starters, the Willys L134 front bearing retainer sits nestled into the "Coffee Cup Coaster" aluminum adapter my machinist made.  I need to figure out how to provide a galley.

     What i did is to locate on the aluminum adapter where i need to bore a hole through it to carry oil back into the transmission case.  I bored a countersunk 5/16" hole.  Then at an angle through the adapter, i drilled a hole through.   This hole will line up with a new 5/16" hole drilled into the backside of the front bearing retainer.   Next, to carry oil from the original oil galley recess, I drilled a series of holes, and then with Dremel and a diamond wheel, i cut out between the series of holes to provide a galley to carry oil from the retainer side (front of bearing), on through the hole in the adapter plate and on through the original oil return hole in the transmission case.    Bingo !   problem solved.

    In the above photo:   the cast iron front bearing retainer is lined up with the oil return hole drilled at and angle through the aluminum adapter plate.    

My thoughts are:   if i were to use a sealed bearing for the front, would i really need an oil return hole ?

    In this image, when the cast retainer is seated into the adapter, it is rotated so the hole at the upper end of the galley matches up with the hole in the adapter.   

Yes, i did bunches of head-scratching, and oogling at my Oil Return Galley 'rubix-cube'  yep.

    The above photo shows the oil return hole marked in yellow.

The bearing retainer has been modified to channel oil front the front side of the retainer, back into the case.

Note:    where the oil return channel has been cast into the front L134 bearing retainer, it is raised above the surrounding surfaces.   I didn't have enough meat (material thickness to cut a passage perpendicular to the input shaft centerline, so that is the reason for drilling holes and cutting between them.    My idea was to cut the galley through the thick flange portion of the Front Bearing Retainer.

The surface of the aluminum adapter with drain hole shown, mates up with the trans case hole marked in yellow.   So from this image, both the retainer and adapter get flipped over for install.

     In this above photo:   i am removing the clutch fork pivot ball.  It is the push-in style, so i twisted it with the Vise Grips while prying upwards with a big screw driver.   It worked !

     In the above photo:   I am showing the removed clutch fork pivot ball.

The ball needs replacing because it is badly worn.

Don't men service or do periodic service to their rigs so they don't have to be towed home by their buddies ?

Now i can move on _ _ _ _ to addressing a mismatch between the rear face of the Ford T-98 trans case to IH Scout T-case adapter plate.

     As i laid out the gaskets which insert between the Transfer Case Adapter plate to transmission, and the gasket inserting between the Adapter plate to Transfer Case.

     Well,  if we look at the following photos, there is a gap between the transmisison casting and the IH Scout Transfer case Adapter plate.    Not Good.  !!!!

This means i will have to build up some weld beads to fill in the Gap-Area on either the T-98 trans case or the IH Scout Adapter plate.   Or, i could use JBWeld as a filler, and machine flat at the gasket surface.

    This photo shows the gasket which follows the contour of the T-98 Trans case, but does Not follow the outline of the IH Scout transfer case adapter Plate.    Geat Scott  !!!    another hurdle.

    This shows the gap between the t-case adapter plate and the gasket.  The gasket follows the outline of the Ford T-98 case.   As a note to, directly behind this gasket in the "gap" area, is a threaded hole which accepts one of the Transfer Case mounting bolts.   I will have to fill carefully with no slop over into the threaded area.

    This shows the area to potentially fill for a complete gasket mating surface on rear of T-98 case.

This decision will be made after doing some filling practice using Harris 99 nickel electrode.

    To be continued:

    

    Below, i am attaching a link to Ken's (Oldtime) thread posting which is a nice reference:

Please note -  it center's around the early Willys optional Borg Warner T-98 trans with part numbers.

The following link is Ken's but the photos were lost:

Today, Thursday, Feb 18,  i am lounging on the sofa dreaming of what could be:

I somehow landed on the "Pirate4x4" website reading a thread post about IH Scout T-18 transmissions.

From that link,  I got off on to reading about the Rubicon Trail and rule changes and regulations of keeping open the County Road.

A  quick note about what I know of running the Rubicon from 1983 through 2001.  _ 20 yrs ago.

Back when, 1985,  a person could drive a jeep with oversize tires through the Little Sluice Box.   My guess is around 1987 people began winching boulders off the sides and down into the Sluice Box requiring a tube-framed-buggy to get through with out body damage.   I could give you all an opinion of this kind gesture, but will refrain because I don't need to go there.   All i can say is people were defecating everywhere outside of campsites on top of the ground without burying with a shovel, and it was GRoss.

Makes me wonder why some people must deficate in their own nest.  Oh wait, the property belongs to the public, so i guess they feel no responsibility to pick up behind themselves.   Hmmmmmm

    With all the poop and trash that some people left behind back then, i am surprised the jeep trail is still open today !!    Seems like even back then, in order to use a fire-ring, i had to clean out a garbage bag of trash from the previous "Users".     I know some 4x groups have "pooper-scooper" days, but when the Jamboree pushes 400 people through in a few days, that equaled  Lots of Poop on the ground.

Really,  how many city-folk carry poop shovels and use them.    concerning _ _ _

   End of Rubicon Trail concerns.   

My machinist is making an adjustment to the clearances of fit between my T-18 special front bearing retainer "coffee cup coaster" so it will easily index into the modified L134 bellhousing.  

Take note:    for you who are new to this, Ford does have several diameter's of front bearing retainers.

In my best interest, I chose the smaller of the two being 4-3/4".   Anyone doing this conversion path will have to make their own choice, but, for me, i'd say go with the smaller hole for least disturbance to the L134 bell housing index hole.

     More to follow soon, _ _ _ _ I hope.   :)

    Here we go for another update:   Jan. 21, 2021.

While waiting for parts for my T-18 transmission puzzle, i have began tearing down a GM SM465 4-speed trans.   This transmission came from Alaska in mid '70's  from the Trans-Alaska-Pipeline construction.

(1974 to 1977 - 800 miles of pipeline).

There was a local truck repair who contracted trucks and field repairs, who actually shipped core driveline components back to California for salvage.  My dad worked at the local Chevrolet Dealer as a parts salesman, and bought a SM465 and some NP205 transfer cases.  So, my dad has had these parts stashed away for 45+ years.   Omg.  So, i have rebuilt many different manual transmissions in my 69-years, but never a SM420 or SM465.    Here we go, learning about how another transmission is constructed.

( I am deviating from my T-18 build here for a moment because below is a link to a Willys-Build that i found Most Interesting ).   

The interesting thing that caught my eye about this build-thread is this:

  a modified SM420 to D-18 bull-Gear, where the T-case gear has been welded to a female splined collar to adapt the gear to the SM420 mainshaft Output Stub.    Exactly something i would tackle in a jiffy.

   D-18 modified drive-gear welded to an internal splined collar for a Muncie SM 420.   Nice work !!

One thing about this One-off drive gear is we must not forget that Spline are Standardized.

I like snooping through the Splined Couplers and Collars at Tractor Supply Shops, gathering ideas of how i can make a new component out of parts and pieces for a task-at-hand.   Machinist's are good for figuring out how to make something once again functional out of a broken something.

Bear with me, as i share thoughts which may benefit someone of interest:

Below is a description of how i salvaged a Ford model 670 flail mower from demise.

I know, i am deviating from my T-18 build, but wanted to share this Flail mower sheave solution which i had made up for me by another local machinist.

     My good buddy, Morris, is 6-years retired from 38-years as a parts salesman for John Deere Co..

Morris knew i was needing a 'different' flail mower.   I had been using a converted Corn-Stalk-Chopper as a field mower and a long tongue pull-behind my dads Ferguson TO-20 tractor.   Probably 2004 sometime, Morris calls me and says if i would like a new challenge to bring my trailer down to the Deere dealer and he will load up a '50's vintage 3-point old retired Ford 670 flail mower.   He saide it was basically sound, but missing long-discontinued parts.  The mower was missing the 10" diameter drive sheave at the outboard end of the drive shaft coming out of the pto gear-box on the mower.

My Solution:    I discovered that a standard 1-1/8" 6-spine coupler perfectly fit the splines on the outboard end of the pulley shaft and missing pulley (sheave).    I know i am typing quickly and using slang words so am mixing and matching terms.    sorry

    The i took the O.D. of the coupler, which was approx 2" O.D, x 4" long, on down to the local bearing shop and had the salesman drag out his book for pulleys, sheaves and hubs.

I wound up ordering a similar diameter sheave designed for a tapered hub.   The tapered hub was bore-able to fit over, and clamp to the collar.   I took the pieces to a local machinist, and had him bore the hub to fit over the coupler, and cut the coupler to length for assembling onto the mover driven shaft, and Voila !!     I should post it on one of the vintage tractor interest forums, but that would distract me more than i am now.    hahahaha    Ford model 670 Flail mower 6-ft arbor.

End of mower side story and standard spline applications.   My guess is the center hub from a clutch disc can readily be converted to a coupler ( if needed in a pinch ).    darn-tootin.

Now, if i were doing this for a Client, they may or may not be concerned.   I know, many people are hesitant about modification to components with machining and welding, but we must remember each day we trust our lives to machining and welding.   If you have any doubts, just drive across the golden gate bridge which was built in the '40's, and people trust their lives to it each day in commuting into good old Frisco.

I rented a  (gear puller ) and a (bearing separator) at AutoZone and dove into pulling bearings on the SM465 yesterday.   What a chore.   Yes,  i wound up using oxy-acet to heat up the inside race of the bearing on the output end of the splined mainshaft, and several times as it was a Tough-Pull.

    As i read through service manuals, seems they each have a different Name for components.

Why must manufacturer's each have their own name.   

For instance:     Input Shaft - (driven-gear) or Cluster Gear (Counter-gear).  I have never heard any line mechanic use the term "driven-gear" for a transmission input-shaft.   Why must each mfr be "different." ?

One Difference i have discovered between a Borg Warner T-18 and a Muncie SM-465 is the cluster-gear on the SM-465 rides on case mounted bearings rather than needle bearings on a shaft, like the BW T-18.

I was reading the SM465 has differences in the 1st gear with improvements over the years.   Hmm

I am tearing down the SM465 to discover the differences.   _ _ _ hey, i'm retired, so No-Hurries.

Yesterday, i got that stubborn output bearing coaxed off of the mainshaft (output shaft), and by then i was running out of daylight, so no more progress on the SM-465 tear-down.