Power Steering - It's Electric! |
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pts211
Member Joined: 18 Sep. 2015 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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Posted: 29 July 2020 at 11:10pm |
I'm making a post seperate from my main build thread to highlight my steering plans. If you haven't came across my Qwaaazy8 build thread, you might check it out - I know some people enjoy it. Background If you've been following along on my build thread you might have caught that one day I want to design and build a "Tesla Willys". That's still a few years out, but there are still a few things I plan to experiment with and prove out. The one I'll discuss here is electric power assisted steering, or EPAS for short. It just makes sense for an all electric Jeep to have electric power steering. I hate waiting, and as I've researched ways to go about this I've gotten really excited at how easy it appears be in it's simplest form. I decided that I'll be proving out one method on my "mostly stock" CJ2A. First let me go over a few approaches to this. Electric over hydraulic This would be most similar to what people adapt today, the only difference would be the hydraulic pump would be electric instead of mechanically driven by the motor. Pros:
Cons:
Electric Rack and Pinion Some modern vehicles use an electric rack and pinion like is pictured below. Pros:
Cons:
Electric Power Assist Steering Column An alternative is having the power assist in the steering column. To put it simply, this puts an electric motor in line with the steering shaft. It uses torque sensors to detect force being applied to the steering wheel and activate the motor and "assist" the driver to turn in the desired direction. This option would utilize the factory steering box and other components, the motor would just assist the driver with added steering force. Pros:
Cons:
From the above I'm choosing to go with an EPAS column, I was able to pick one up out of a Toyota with the u-jointed shaft, column, and the motor controller for under $150. The Toyota module I'm using will default to a "limp mode" amount of steering force since the Jeep won't have the rest of the Toyota's CAN bus that the module expects. By all accounts this will be optimized for around 45mph and is well balanced. Since I'll need it most at low speeds, I'm hoping it'll work fine for my case. Otherwise I might have to do some reverse engineering on the CAN bus. Another concern is wear on steering components. Can a 2A handle the added force? Since I've seen multiple people pulling on Stan's steering wheel to turn under pressure, and his steering seems to hold up... I'm not too worried about that. If the motor manages to overpower the stock steering I'll be very happy. I'm mostly curious, will it supply enough power to make for a nice driving experience? As part of this I expect I might need to invest in a nice battery to supplement the alternator output when doing low speed steering. Another bit of good news is that even if the motor dies I'll just fall back to full manual steering. I plan to mount a switch to turn it on and off to compare how much it helps. And to let others experience a before and after effect. Fitment This conversion has had me excited from day one because the only thing that has to be changed is the steering column itself. If this works as I have imagined a swap could be done less than a few hours. Not only that, but it should tuck up under the dash - I don't think many people will know that it's even there unless they are looking for it. Several weeks ago when designing our seating mods we held it in place and got a good idea for how it can look. Making the Modifications Last weekend we finally reached a point where we could think about the steering again and got to it. Step one: Cut the stock steering shaft. This mod requires that we splice the power steering module in line with the steering column. With that cut down we needed to adapt the u-joint connection from the EPAS unit. We got on the lathe to make it a press fit into the 2A steering column and welded it in. Here you can see it coming together. At this point we've adapted the stock CJ2A steering column to the EPAS unit. It's not pictured but we also adapted the CJ2A steering wheel spline to the end of the column. This will allow us to mount the stock steering wheel if desired, but for now the plan is to use a 15" wheel with the same spline. Another note the u-joint shaft might be avoidable, but is purposeful here for two reasons.
This is where we are at so far. In the coming week we'll be mounting it all in, hooking up the electrical, and seeing how it works. Stick around, hopefully we'll be steering in circles with our pinkies very soon! |
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Paul S - son of Ricco
1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
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Siskiwit
Member Joined: 23 Dec. 2013 Location: 54827 Status: Offline Points: 166 |
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I am very interested in your project. Please let me and everybody else know the progress and issues involved.
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'48 2a - '46 2a - '54 3b - '70 cj5 and a bunch of accessories.
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chasendeer
Member Joined: 24 Feb. 2012 Location: Napa,CA Status: Offline Points: 1086 |
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Looks good!! Can we get part numbers?
Jay
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Daniel_Buck
Member Joined: 01 Apr. 2012 Location: Gilroy Status: Offline Points: 1200 |
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I'm quite curious about how well that column mounted electric motor works!. I would love to have a little bit of extra steering power in my 33 Chevy, but I don't want to run a power steering rack or pump. And I don't NEED power steering all that bad, but a little extra help would be nice.
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2a #40500
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Flatfender Ben
Member Joined: 13 July 2014 Location: Nyssa OR Status: Offline Points: 2657 |
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Very cool idea!!
Looking forward to updates!
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1946 cj2a desert dog
1946 cj2a bulldog 1948 cj2a blue jeep 1953 cj3b yard dog 1955 willys wagon 1955 willys pickup 1956 willys pickup boomer 1960 fc 170 1968 jeepster commando 1990 Grand wagoneer |
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Oldpappy
Member Joined: 09 Apr. 2018 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 4904 |
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This is a very interesting and creative innovation.
Many have used electric vacuum pumps on hot rods to have power brakes when there is not enough room for a regular brake booster, but I have never even thought about electric power steering. I guess I am behind the curve on modern automotive designs. Bravo!
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If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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OnlyOneDR
Member Joined: 05 July 2016 Location: R Status: Offline Points: 459 |
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This is great. At one point kits were made making it possible to do this same "column assist" with hydraulic power as well (called a steering servo). A torsion bar is mounted inside a valved box that interposes the steering column to add power assist to a manual system. Same principle as how a modern recirculating ball power steering box valving works without the worm and sector shaft.
Speedway motors sells a modern version of this: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Sweet-Mfg-301-30250-Power-Steering-Servo-250-Medium,29596.html?sku=91030250&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjPOhtbT16gIVA6_ICh3zXQmfEAQYBCABEgKlYfD_BwE I am sure curious to see how the "limp" mode works out. I know when the engine is not running in my 2014 Chevy 1500 then vehicle provides no power to the electric rack and it is a bear to steer. This would be better because you still have the same steering ratio that the box gives you.
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Searching for time to put it all together...
1950 CJ-3A #37751 In Pieces 1969 Chevy Blazer Resto-Mod Waiting for its day... 2001 Nissan Frontier Crawler Adventure Rig |
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pts211
Member Joined: 18 Sep. 2015 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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Jay I don't have specific part numbers. But I picked up a steering column, u-joint shaft, and the steering control module from a 2012 Toyota Prius for this conversion. I know there are several model years that should do the trick, either from about 2007-2010 or from about 2012-2014 if I recall. Many are the same, there are also few other manufactures who have very similar mechanisms that should work, I just went with what I could find the most information about.
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Paul S - son of Ricco
1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
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pts211
Member Joined: 18 Sep. 2015 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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Thanks for that info, that seems to be a very similar concept indeed - just with hydraulic. I didn't realize that was a thing!
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Paul S - son of Ricco
1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
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Oldpappy
Member Joined: 09 Apr. 2018 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 4904 |
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Did you pin the welded joints ?
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If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!
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pts211
Member Joined: 18 Sep. 2015 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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We turned each end so they would be a nice press fit to establish parallel, then did a full welded bead around the joint.
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Paul S - son of Ricco
1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
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Metcalf
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 21 May 2009 Location: Durango, Co Status: Offline Points: 736 |
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Neat stuff! It will be interesting to see how the increased force wears the pin in the Ross box over time compared to stock. That would be my only real worry....and maybe throw an extra bellcrank pin in the parts bag! |
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42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.
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rocnroll
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Tuscumbia, AL Status: Offline Points: 13584 |
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My concerns would be along the same lines as Metcalf raised.
Additional force applied to pieces not designed for that force. Interesting option I guess but I'll stick with a Saginaw......good luck with it and kudos for trying something different. Hope it works out well for you. |
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'47 CJ2A PU
'48 CJ2A Lefty "Common sense is not that common" |
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pts211
Member Joined: 18 Sep. 2015 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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That was an initial concern when I started thinking it through. But, then I thought of it this way. Imagine how much force a full grown man is able to put on the steering box with the ~9" lever (the stock steering wheel radius) that it comes with. Although this is a beefy motor, I don't think (in this configuration) that it is even technically capable of applying more force than a human driver can in our Jeeps. So for now, I don't consider this as a device that is applying force in places they weren't designed for, instead it just reduces where the force comes from. ex. 50% human, 50% electric. That said, in day to day operation I don't expect any additional wear. However, in the extreme cases I imagine it could help incur damage. I'm certainly looking forward to exploring the effects!
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Paul S - son of Ricco
1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
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Ol' Unreliable
Member Joined: 25 Sep. 2016 Location: CO Springs CO Status: Offline Points: 4226 |
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That's weird. Electric power steering? Just last week I replaced the water pump in my '04 Grand Cherokee and discovered that the radiator fan is hydraulic powered. Is everything backward lately??
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There's a reason it's called Ol' Unreliable
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rocnroll
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: Tuscumbia, AL Status: Offline Points: 13584 |
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So in an 'unpowered' state does the column feel just like it would in original condition?
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'47 CJ2A PU
'48 CJ2A Lefty "Common sense is not that common" |
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pts211
Member Joined: 18 Sep. 2015 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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Yep, it should feel just like stock. I plan to put a separate power switch to it so I can do testing with it on versus off to compare.
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Paul S - son of Ricco
1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
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Metcalf
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 21 May 2009 Location: Durango, Co Status: Offline Points: 736 |
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Don't get me wrong, I love the concept. I do think that there will be 'more' input force now from the steering assist. I don't think there is anything from the driver giving 100% and the assist giving more? There might also be less 'kick-back' force also which could be nice. I have seen increased and accelerated wear on the pins in Ross boxes when used with front lockers and people cranking on the wheel harder. I can't wait to hear the report after a year or two of use. Rebuilding the box more often isn't the end of the world either. |
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42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.
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