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Dauntless Drivetrain Change

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tamnalan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamnalan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct. 2023 at 12:38pm
Good to know, thanks!    Wilson's build is a lot cleaner looking than the one I bought... need to get to work on that
Alan Johnson
1942 MB - "TBD"
1943 MB - "Lt Bob"
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teardrop camper: https://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=201740
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan. 2024 at 10:45am
It has been a while since Wilson has had any major changes,  2024 will be a year of some upgrades. Smile

The first is putting discs and Brennan's Electric Ebrake kit on the rear.    I stumbled across this kinda by accident.

I was ok with the 11" drums on rear,  but was sometimes disappointed in the weak E-brake, mostly in reverse.  Also always wanted "cutting brakes" for situation when limited-slip rear was limiting forward progress. Wink  (one wheel off ground)    In this conversion,  left and right side can be electrically wired separate,  so can be independently operated.

I never knew how the parking brakes worked on some modern vehicles.  Basically it is a electric motor that spins a geared-down "screw" that clamps the caliper piston.   Reversing polarity unscrews it to release.   It needs 12v to clamp, and to release,  but no power once clamped.

Brennan's kit is designed for using a "Ford Fusion" caliper.   Below is photo of my current progress.  Everything is mocked up,  and I did some preliminary testing.  It does clamp and unclamp! 



Next steps are to disassemble,  clean up a little, and reassemble to proper torques.    Then hook up the electrical controls.

I plan to post a separate build thread once finished.

Time to get off this computer,  go fire up the woodstove in garage,   and get to work!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan. 2024 at 11:43pm
Oh man,  so close,  but not ready to drive yet. 

Even with some unexpected interruptions,  I was able to get the main assembly finished.



I did some mock-up of my design for Ebrake motor control, (different from anything I have seen others do . . it gives some proportional control) and I am happy with the results.

Tomorrow,  hopefully I can get the the brake lines connected and bled,  and the "in dash" motor controls installed.  

I really need this done,  because Wilson needs to get back to work.  LOL


Edited by JeepFever - 10 Jan. 2024 at 12:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bridog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan. 2024 at 8:02am
Originally posted by JeepFever JeepFever wrote:

I did some mock-up of my design for Ebrake motor control, (different from anything I have seen others do . . it gives some proportional control) and I am happy with the results.

Looking forward to hearing more about this!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan. 2024 at 6:46pm
As mentioned before,  I plan to create a new thread with the details of this conversion,  but will share the highlights now (of the electrical side),  mostly because I am kinda excited about this upgrade. LOL

I previously did some mock up testing of the motor control,  and the results seemed promising.



1) resettable 10amp breaker
2) 5 ohm 100 watt variable resistor
Adding resistance in the power input wire lowers the current,  and in my mind -> would lower the clamping force. 
3) momentary contact switch . . designed for boat "trim" adjustments.
     I had never heard of these,  but my brother suggested it when I described how I wanted to control

There are 2 pair of wires (those orange wires) that go from the #3 switch -> to the motors on calipers.    

I decided I wanted "up" to be "clamp" to match my E-locker switch where "up" is locked.   Left switch is for left brake.    I like the ergonomics of this switch.  It is easy to choose left-only, right-only,  or both.

Test results:  (this might be a little cryptic,  but came from my notes)

Position      ohm             Both                    Single
Low          5 ohm          2.3amp  30lb*         2.3 amp  60lb
30%         3.3 ohm       3.4amp  barely**      3.4amp   Can't turn by hand***
60%         2 ohm          7.0amp  can't        did not try
100%       0 ohm           20+ amp  kicked the breaker while still clamping

Position:  low = knob turned fully to left, 
              100% = turned fully to right (full power,  no resistance added)

*Wheel was installed,  off the ground,  it took approx 30lbs of force with each hand to rotate wheel
     (one hand pushing down on tire tread,   other hand pulling up)  
** I could just barely rotate the tire,  twisting as hard as I could
*** self explanatory,  the brake was stronger than me.  :-)

The difference between Both and Single =  both sides at same time,  vs just one switch at a time.   I noticed that if both switches were pressed until motor stalled -> I could press just one switch after that,  and the motor would clamp down a tad more.

Road/Trail test:
I won't go into a lot of detail here,  will do that later in separate thread,  but basically I REALLY like this.   I could turn the knob to pre-determine how hard to clamp,  then press switch(s) to activate the brakes.    To give some idea of braking ability,  75% would skid a tire on pavement.    I never turned the knob to 100% . . .  never had to.

View of the dash layout:
I made those red marks to give some idea where the knob was positioned



I made the plate out of wood until I know how I like the layout.   Don't be concerned that I cut a big hole in my pristine dash Wink   When I got Wilson,  there was a 8-track receiver and a speaker in the dash.  Half of the data plate was hacked away.  Ouch  I had to find a replacement.

That other switch is for front E-locker,  for those who do not recognize it.

One of the tests today:   tranny in neutral,  only new brakes are preventing from rolling backward.



The photo is a little misleading.  It looks like the rear wheels are on a flat spot,  but that is actually a pretty healthy slope also.

There is NO WAY my 11" drum parking brake would have held here,  even when adjusted properly and hand-lever on floor pulled to the max.   It was not strong in reverse.

FYI   Wilson has a flanged axle, 30 spline Dana 44 out of '74 CJ-5 . .  that is primarily what Brennan's kit was designed for,  but it will also work for older Dana 44's also.




Edited by JeepFever - 10 Jan. 2024 at 10:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barry S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan. 2024 at 6:54pm
Looking great Ron!  Way to think outside the box!

-Barry
1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729
194? CJ2A 04893/194304
1946 CJ2A 46745
1946 CJ2A 36723
1945 MB   413665
1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan. 2024 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by Barry S Barry S wrote:

Looking great Ron!  Way to think outside the box!

-Barry

Thanks Barry Smile

I just hope someone,  (who knows a lot more about electrical motors),  does not come on here to say -> "Your motors are not going to last very long running them like that" Confused   I am a novice when it comes to this stuff.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barry S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2024 at 8:31am
I'd love to learn more about how those brake motors are designed to work.  We'll have lots to talk about next time we get together!  I have switched over to PWMs (pulse width modulation) for all my DC motor and LED controls in the camper, kayak trolling motor, and model trains. I'll be putting one in Grasshopper to control the heater fan speed.  A PWM controller might work good for your application - better control and easier on the motors compared to the variable resistor.  They are easy to hook up and inexpensive.  Here's one on Amazon for 8 bucks.

1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729
194? CJ2A 04893/194304
1946 CJ2A 46745
1946 CJ2A 36723
1945 MB   413665
1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor
Bantam Trailer T3-C 25487
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AKoller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2024 at 8:36am
Ron, remind me what locker you have in the rear of Wilson...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2024 at 9:34am
I have Eaton TrueTrac limited-slip in the rear.

This is one of the reasons I am excited about having individual control of left or right.   The TrueTrac does really well,  (except of course when one wheel is completely off the ground, or close to it).   

I did some testing yesterday,  I was kinda amazed at how twisted things had to get before one wheel would spin.  When that happened though,   it worked great -> to apply about 60% brake to just that side,  and Jeep would move forward again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan. 2024 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Barry S Barry S wrote:

I'd love to learn more about how those brake motors are designed to work.  We'll have lots to talk about next time we get together!  I have switched over to PWMs (pulse width modulation) for all my DC motor and LED controls in the camper, kayak trolling motor, and model trains. I'll be putting one in Grasshopper to control the heater fan speed.  A PWM controller might work good for your application - better control and easier on the motors compared to the variable resistor.  They are easy to hook up and inexpensive.  Here's one on Amazon for 8 bucks.


Very interesting . .  I might need to try that out.    That particular one might be slightly undersized,  because amperage could go higher than its rating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan. 2024 at 8:29pm
My brother works for a company that does industrial automation.  He talked to one of the EE's about what I am doing.  This guy said that motor life should not be a concern.  Using a variable resistor is a inefficient way to control, not as precise, but should not damage the motor.    He also warned that the resistor should be rated high enough not to overheat.    Mine at 100W is probably overkill,  because it never even got slightly warm during the bench testing,  this was multiple back-to-back clamps over probably 20 minutes.   Way higher use than in normal conditions.

Today,  Wilson was on firewood duty in the hilly woods.   The Ebrakes worked great.   One of the best tests ->  on a fairly steep uphill,  overloaded Bantam trailer in tow (full load of wet oak)  . .  they held fine on this hill with Ebrake locked at 60-70%,  clutch in, and no regular brake.   The 11" brakes would never have come close to working in this situation.

A test of the disc brakes:   In a "panic stop" on gravel road,    both front brakes skidded first, simultaneously,  then rears skided with harder push.  (Wilson has stock ‘81 CJ disc brakes on the front). Easy to control,  and went straight.  I am too chicken to try it on pavement.  haha     This is with dual master cylinder, and no proportioning valve.

An odd thing happened today.   On a trail, a 3ft stick, about 1.5" in diameter, kicked up.  I heard it hit the bottom of rear floor,  then was making a dragging noise and sensation.    I got out to look up under the rear . . .  the bottom of the stick had wedged under the rear axle,  and the top of the stick was trying to tear out the flexible hydraulic brake line to center of diff,  along with the new electric wires. Shocked   Crazy,  it almost took out ALL of Wilson's rear brakes. Ouch
It was so tight,  I had to cut it out with a chainsaw. 

Very happy with day 2 of new rear brakes,  they even survived this freak occurrence.









Edited by JeepFever - 13 Jan. 2024 at 9:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barry S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2024 at 1:47pm
Glad to hear everything is working great!

I agree with your brothers friend - as long as your are only cutting the voltage to the motor to around 60 or 70 percent all is good.  If you find that you want to control it lower than 50 percent then a PWM might be a better option because at some point the voltage would be too low to make the motor turn and the windings can overheat if left energized long.  A PWM doesn't reduce the voltage to the motor - it pulses it on and off at a very fast rate.  That allows you to run the motor at a very low speed and still have it continue to turn.  An added advantage is that if you only run the motor at 50 percent - you only use about 50 percent of the electricity.  Doing the same using a resistor still uses most of the electricity - the difference is wasted in the form of heat in the resistor.  

Bottom line is, if what you have is working great - don't fix it!Clap  Also, glad the stick didn't wreck all your hard work!

-Barry


Edited by Barry S - 13 Jan. 2024 at 1:48pm
1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729
194? CJ2A 04893/194304
1946 CJ2A 46745
1946 CJ2A 36723
1945 MB   413665
1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor
Bantam Trailer T3-C 25487
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamnalan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2024 at 8:50pm
Appreciate your posting this stuff!   I have the same axle, that needs some brake upgrades.   The jeep came to me with a park lok valve but I'm interested in the separate braking mode offered by the electric motor, should the hydraulics fail.
Alan Johnson
1942 MB - "TBD"
1943 MB - "Lt Bob"
1950 cj3a
M-100 x2
teardrop camper: https://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=201740
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2024 at 9:33pm
Barry S . . I wish I had known about PWM when I started this.  I probably would have tried that route.  I will run what I have for now,  but might be interesting to do a comparison later.  

tamnalan  . .  I am very happy with results . .  will be sharing more.   On using this as "emergency" brake.  It would work.   I drove home from my son's house the first day,  using nothing but the EEBrakes.  LOL    They come on gradual, but unclamp very quickly  . . so not really that hard to control.

I was hoping to post a separate, more detailed, thread by now . .  but we got an unexpected weekend of hosting 2-5 grandkids. Shocked     Good stuff, but takes away time for hobbies.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan. 2024 at 9:47pm
I did get the detailed install thread posted,  some of the stuff I shared here is on it.   It is time-consuming to do these things!  haha   hope it makes sense.   I am sure I will be adding/changing over next couple weeks

https://www.thecj2apage.com/FORUMS/topic53396_post549188.html




Edited by JeepFever - 15 Jan. 2024 at 9:49pm
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