Dauntless Drivetrain Change |
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tamnalan
Member Joined: 08 Oct. 2013 Location: Port Orford, OR Status: Offline Points: 986 |
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Good to know, thanks! Wilson's build is a lot cleaner looking than the one I bought... need to get to work on that
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Alan Johnson
1942 MB - "TBD" 1943 MB - "Lt Bob" 1950 cj3a M-100 x2 teardrop camper: https://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=201740 |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2735 |
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It has been a while since Wilson has had any major changes, 2024 will be a year of some upgrades.
The first is putting discs and Brennan's Electric Ebrake kit on the rear. I stumbled across this kinda by accident. I was ok with the 11" drums on rear, but was sometimes disappointed in the weak E-brake, mostly in reverse. Also always wanted "cutting brakes" for situation when limited-slip rear was limiting forward progress. (one wheel off ground) In this conversion, left and right side can be electrically wired separate, so can be independently operated. I never knew how the parking brakes worked on some modern vehicles. Basically it is a electric motor that spins a geared-down "screw" that clamps the caliper piston. Reversing polarity unscrews it to release. It needs 12v to clamp, and to release, but no power once clamped. Brennan's kit is designed for using a "Ford Fusion" caliper. Below is photo of my current progress. Everything is mocked up, and I did some preliminary testing. It does clamp and unclamp! Next steps are to disassemble, clean up a little, and reassemble to proper torques. Then hook up the electrical controls. I plan to post a separate build thread once finished. Time to get off this computer, go fire up the woodstove in garage, and get to work!
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2735 |
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Oh man, so close, but not ready to drive yet.
Even with some unexpected interruptions, I was able to get the main assembly finished. I did some mock-up of my design for Ebrake motor control, (different from anything I have seen others do . . it gives some proportional control) and I am happy with the results. Tomorrow, hopefully I can get the the brake lines connected and bled, and the "in dash" motor controls installed. I really need this done, because Wilson needs to get back to work.
Edited by JeepFever - 10 Jan. 2024 at 12:48am |
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Bridog
Member Joined: 04 Oct. 2016 Location: Holt, MO Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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Looking forward to hearing more about this!
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2735 |
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As mentioned before, I plan to create a new thread with the details of this conversion, but will share the highlights now (of the electrical side), mostly because I am kinda excited about this upgrade.
I previously did some mock up testing of the motor control, and the results seemed promising. 1) resettable 10amp breaker 2) 5 ohm 100 watt variable resistor Adding resistance in the power input wire lowers the current, and in my mind -> would lower the clamping force. 3) momentary contact switch . . designed for boat "trim" adjustments. I had never heard of these, but my brother suggested it when I described how I wanted to control There are 2 pair of wires (those orange wires) that go from the #3 switch -> to the motors on calipers. I decided I wanted "up" to be "clamp" to match my E-locker switch where "up" is locked. Left switch is for left brake. I like the ergonomics of this switch. It is easy to choose left-only, right-only, or both. Test results: (this might be a little cryptic, but came from my notes) Position ohm Both Single Low 5 ohm 2.3amp 30lb* 2.3 amp 60lb 30% 3.3 ohm 3.4amp barely** 3.4amp Can't turn by hand*** 60% 2 ohm 7.0amp can't did not try 100% 0 ohm 20+ amp kicked the breaker while still clamping Position: low = knob turned fully to left, 100% = turned fully to right (full power, no resistance added) *Wheel was installed, off the ground, it took approx 30lbs of force with each hand to rotate wheel (one hand pushing down on tire tread, other hand pulling up) ** I could just barely rotate the tire, twisting as hard as I could *** self explanatory, the brake was stronger than me. :-) The difference between Both and Single = both sides at same time, vs just one switch at a time. I noticed that if both switches were pressed until motor stalled -> I could press just one switch after that, and the motor would clamp down a tad more. Road/Trail test: I won't go into a lot of detail here, will do that later in separate thread, but basically I REALLY like this. I could turn the knob to pre-determine how hard to clamp, then press switch(s) to activate the brakes. To give some idea of braking ability, 75% would skid a tire on pavement. I never turned the knob to 100% . . . never had to. View of the dash layout: I made those red marks to give some idea where the knob was positioned I made the plate out of wood until I know how I like the layout. Don't be concerned that I cut a big hole in my pristine dash When I got Wilson, there was a 8-track receiver and a speaker in the dash. Half of the data plate was hacked away. I had to find a replacement. That other switch is for front E-locker, for those who do not recognize it. One of the tests today: tranny in neutral, only new brakes are preventing from rolling backward. The photo is a little misleading. It looks like the rear wheels are on a flat spot, but that is actually a pretty healthy slope also. There is NO WAY my 11" drum parking brake would have held here, even when adjusted properly and hand-lever on floor pulled to the max. It was not strong in reverse. FYI Wilson has a flanged axle, 30 spline Dana 44 out of '74 CJ-5 . . that is primarily what Brennan's kit was designed for, but it will also work for older Dana 44's also. Edited by JeepFever - 10 Jan. 2024 at 10:51pm |
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Barry S
Member Joined: 01 Mar. 2020 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 658 |
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Looking great Ron! Way to think outside the box!
-Barry
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1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729 194? CJ2A 04893/194304 1946 CJ2A 46745 1946 CJ2A 36723 1945 MB 413665 1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor Bantam Trailer T3-C 25487 |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2735 |
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Thanks Barry I just hope someone, (who knows a lot more about electrical motors), does not come on here to say -> "Your motors are not going to last very long running them like that" I am a novice when it comes to this stuff.
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Barry S
Member Joined: 01 Mar. 2020 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 658 |
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I'd love to learn more about how those brake motors are designed to work. We'll have lots to talk about next time we get together! I have switched over to PWMs (pulse width modulation) for all my DC motor and LED controls in the camper, kayak trolling motor, and model trains. I'll be putting one in Grasshopper to control the heater fan speed. A PWM controller might work good for your application - better control and easier on the motors compared to the variable resistor. They are easy to hook up and inexpensive. Here's one on Amazon for 8 bucks.
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1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729 194? CJ2A 04893/194304 1946 CJ2A 46745 1946 CJ2A 36723 1945 MB 413665 1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor Bantam Trailer T3-C 25487 |
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AKoller
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 19 Sep. 2018 Location: Moundridge Kans Status: Offline Points: 647 |
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Ron, remind me what locker you have in the rear of Wilson...
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1950 CJ3A "Thumper"
1966 M151 A1 1942 GPW #70221 |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2735 |
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I have Eaton TrueTrac limited-slip in the rear.
This is one of the reasons I am excited about having individual control of left or right. The TrueTrac does really well, (except of course when one wheel is completely off the ground, or close to it). I did some testing yesterday, I was kinda amazed at how twisted things had to get before one wheel would spin. When that happened though, it worked great -> to apply about 60% brake to just that side, and Jeep would move forward again.
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2735 |
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Very interesting . . I might need to try that out. That particular one might be slightly undersized, because amperage could go higher than its rating.
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2735 |
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My brother works for a company that does industrial automation. He talked to one of the EE's about what I am doing. This guy said that motor life should not be a concern. Using a variable resistor is a inefficient way to control, not as precise, but should not damage the motor. He also warned that the resistor should be rated high enough not to overheat. Mine at 100W is probably overkill, because it never even got slightly warm during the bench testing, this was multiple back-to-back clamps over probably 20 minutes. Way higher use than in normal conditions.
Today, Wilson was on firewood duty in the hilly woods. The Ebrakes worked great. One of the best tests -> on a fairly steep uphill, overloaded Bantam trailer in tow (full load of wet oak) . . they held fine on this hill with Ebrake locked at 60-70%, clutch in, and no regular brake. The 11" brakes would never have come close to working in this situation. A test of the disc brakes: In a "panic stop" on gravel road, both front brakes skidded first, simultaneously, then rears skided with harder push. (Wilson has stock ‘81 CJ disc brakes on the front). Easy to control, and went straight. I am too chicken to try it on pavement. haha This is with dual master cylinder, and no proportioning valve. An odd thing happened today. On a trail, a 3ft stick, about 1.5" in diameter, kicked up. I heard it hit the bottom of rear floor, then was making a dragging noise and sensation. I got out to look up under the rear . . . the bottom of the stick had wedged under the rear axle, and the top of the stick was trying to tear out the flexible hydraulic brake line to center of diff, along with the new electric wires. Crazy, it almost took out ALL of Wilson's rear brakes. It was so tight, I had to cut it out with a chainsaw. Very happy with day 2 of new rear brakes, they even survived this freak occurrence. Edited by JeepFever - 13 Jan. 2024 at 9:46am |
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Barry S
Member Joined: 01 Mar. 2020 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 658 |
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Glad to hear everything is working great!
I agree with your brothers friend - as long as your are only cutting the voltage to the motor to around 60 or 70 percent all is good. If you find that you want to control it lower than 50 percent then a PWM might be a better option because at some point the voltage would be too low to make the motor turn and the windings can overheat if left energized long. A PWM doesn't reduce the voltage to the motor - it pulses it on and off at a very fast rate. That allows you to run the motor at a very low speed and still have it continue to turn. An added advantage is that if you only run the motor at 50 percent - you only use about 50 percent of the electricity. Doing the same using a resistor still uses most of the electricity - the difference is wasted in the form of heat in the resistor.
Bottom line is, if what you have is working great - don't fix it! Also, glad the stick didn't wreck all your hard work! -Barry Edited by Barry S - 13 Jan. 2024 at 1:48pm |
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1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729 194? CJ2A 04893/194304 1946 CJ2A 46745 1946 CJ2A 36723 1945 MB 413665 1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor Bantam Trailer T3-C 25487 |
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tamnalan
Member Joined: 08 Oct. 2013 Location: Port Orford, OR Status: Offline Points: 986 |
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Appreciate your posting this stuff! I have the same axle, that needs some brake upgrades. The jeep came to me with a park lok valve but I'm interested in the separate braking mode offered by the electric motor, should the hydraulics fail.
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Alan Johnson
1942 MB - "TBD" 1943 MB - "Lt Bob" 1950 cj3a M-100 x2 teardrop camper: https://forums.g503.com/viewtopic.php?f=141&t=201740 |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2735 |
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Barry S . . I wish I had known about PWM when I started this. I probably would have tried that route. I will run what I have for now, but might be interesting to do a comparison later.
tamnalan . . I am very happy with results . . will be sharing more. On using this as "emergency" brake. It would work. I drove home from my son's house the first day, using nothing but the EEBrakes. They come on gradual, but unclamp very quickly . . so not really that hard to control. I was hoping to post a separate, more detailed, thread by now . . but we got an unexpected weekend of hosting 2-5 grandkids. Good stuff, but takes away time for hobbies.
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2735 |
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I did get the detailed install thread posted, some of the stuff I shared here is on it. It is time-consuming to do these things! haha hope it makes sense. I am sure I will be adding/changing over next couple weeks
https://www.thecj2apage.com/FORUMS/topic53396_post549188.html Edited by JeepFever - 15 Jan. 2024 at 9:49pm |
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