Dual Master cylinder upgrade |
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redrunner
Member Joined: 01 Apr. 2016 Location: NW Iowa Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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Posted: 09 Nov. 2018 at 12:54am |
Here is the whole 14 month brake
story during the restoration of my jeep.
The
PO had switched the front over to the K10 front disks. The parts he used: (according to
his paperwork he gave me) The PO left the single stage master cylinder in
place and put a remote reservoir made of 3 inch PVC pipe on the firewall with a
hose running to the lid of the original master cylinder. It worked but would not look to good on the
restoration. So as I started the restoration process, I
thought it would be best to replace the master cylinder to something better and
with no remote reservoir on it. I opted
to go with a dual reservoir that fit a 80’s Ford Fairmont. (Someone else on the
CJ2A page had used one, so I figured why not.)
I made a mount and had time to fit it all in
place because the tub was off and it was easy to put the new bracket in
place. The first master cylinder was a cast iron
rebuild and it would not put out any fluid to the rear brakes at all. Defect it out and put in an aluminum
rebuild. The aluminum one would never
build any kind of a pedal, so back it went and I bought a brand new cast iron
master cylinder. Put that in and again
had problems, no fluid to the back issue. I also believed that it must have had
residual valves built into the master cylinder ports. I moved
the moved the master cylinder forward as far as possible and re-manufactured the
brake push rod, it needed shortened. I moved the master cylinder back and forth
until I had about 2 to 2 ½ inches of rod movement on the master cylinder piston. I plumbed it this way…. From the master cylinder I ran the brakes
lines first to a residual valve before the proportion valve. So it goes back outlet of the master cylinder
to the input of the 2 pound residual valve.
The outlet of the 2 pound valve goes to the input of the proportion
valve inlet which is on the top of the proportion valve. (this is for the front brakes) So the front outlet of the master cylinder
goes to the 10 pound residual valve inlet.
10 pound outlet goes to the proportion valve on the top side. (this is
for the back brakes) This proportion
valve also has a brake light switch put in it with a wire loom. From the proportion front output (one is
plugged off) it goes to the rubber hose near the front driver’s side. The proportion valve last output goes to the
rear brakes hose from above the rear end.
After doing all of this, the brakes still did
not work, so I started to take parts out one at a time. Starting with the front residual valve, but I
would still have both brake caliper hang on me and both of the front brakes
would start to stop the jeep going down the road some times. The next time you would drive it not a
problem and everything worked fine. Next
I tried taking out both residual valves and still no back brakes and the front
would still gradually get hot and stop the front rotors. Next I took out the proportion valve, no
change. Finally it I was down to just
master cylinder, lines and brakes, still no back brakes at all. With no back brake and the front brakes not
releasing and brake drag…..I about started to pull my hair out finally after
talking with my dad, who worked as a mechanic for many years back a few days, we came to the same
conclusion, the master cylinder I was using was not putting enough fluid to the
back brakes and the fronts would not release enough. I hit
the computer again and started to dig. I
ended up finding on the early cj5 page, a swap someone had done using the same
parts as the PO did on my jeep. I took
the time to call Doorman and talked with a tech support guy. He pulled up the drawing and said that this
cylinder did not have any type of residual valve at all. Bingo, I hit pay dirt and started to put it
all back together again. I did have to shorten the two banjo bolts about 1/4 of
an inch to get them to both tighten down tight.
I just used a small angle grinder with a sanding pad on it. It took about 5 minutes each and a few trial
fits to make sure it all would fit. I
also had to grind a small amount off of the engine block to ensure clearance
between it and the master cylinder banjo bolts. I took off less that 1/8 of an
inch. I returned all of the other parts into
my system as well, being both residual valves and the proportion valve. Again I bleed the brakes only to find that
the fittings I had were leaking, so out it came again. More research and a small amount of sealer on
the pipe threads, notice I said pipe threads and not inverted flare
threads. It all works, I need to adjust
the push rod to get just a little more brake pedal but I truly believe we have
finally beat the no/barely working brakes! Here is the list of parts and the vendors I
used Doorman M56193 New master cylinder to fit 1972
jeep cj5 with drum brakes Amazon Two Fragola part #650156 Banjo Bolts Jegs
(phone them this is not a stocked part)
It comes with two washer seals but they were the wrong size, too big so
I got something else. Four copper brake line washers ½ diameter from
the parts store. Two (E-10-8) Inline Tube 90 Degree Brass
Elbow with Male 1/8" NPT Pipe Thread and Female 3/8"-24 Inverted
Flare for 3/16" Brake Line Amazon
Permatex #59235 high temp and for hydraulics local
parts house
Brake line I made all of my own
One (E-6-6) Adjustable Proportioning Valve Distribution Block Disc Drum Brake Street Rod BLK Amazon One set of Pirate Mfg Residual Valve Disc
Drum Brake Set Check Valve Hot Street Custom Rod 2 & 10 LB Amazon
This seems really short for all the problems
I had getting these brakes to work but here it is. |
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“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.”
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redrunner
Member Joined: 01 Apr. 2016 Location: NW Iowa Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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More Pictures
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“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.”
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Nick_
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 05 May 2014 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1138 |
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I'm going to switch over to this system but had a question. Do you mean 2 to 2-1/2" inches of the brake pedal travel, or actual stroke inside the master cylinder? On the Ford Fairlane master I'm only getting 3/4" stroke travel, and that is with the master up against the steering box. However I have 2" of pedal travel.
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redrunner
Member Joined: 01 Apr. 2016 Location: NW Iowa Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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I got that travel on the piston in the master cylinder. I could never get enough fluid out of the front master cylinder output to stop the rear wheels of the jeep. The fronts would lock up tight but I could still turn the rear brakes by hand with the Ford master cylinder.
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“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.”
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Nick_
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 05 May 2014 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1138 |
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The "original" Ford master cylinder only had 1.5" of piston travel though? I don't see how it's physically possible to get 2-2.5" of stroke. The steering box is in the way.
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redrunner
Member Joined: 01 Apr. 2016 Location: NW Iowa Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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The distance of travel was just a rough guess on my part, I never put a tape to it. I did measure the travel of the master cylinder piston with a screw drive at one time but don't remember the number. The 1.5 inch travel was about right. When I was getting the near 2 inches, I don't think that the pedal rod was up against the end of the piston. So as I push on the brake pedal (free travel for 1/2") then the piston would start to move forward. I also custom made the pedal rod that pushed the master cylinder piston. Hope this helps.
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“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.”
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Jeff C
Member Joined: 08 Mar. 2010 Location: Centennial Colo Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Redrunner
Thank you for all of your time on this post. Every year or so I go through my front disc brakes locking up. I finished installing all the related parts that you have posted. I have Herms master cylinder mount, I was concerned about the Dorman Master Cylinder fitting, but it bolted right in. Took my cj2a for a long drive today. No Problems. Thank you again |
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redrunner
Member Joined: 01 Apr. 2016 Location: NW Iowa Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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Your welcome and happy Jeeping! Mine is in the shed for the winter. It is going to be -45 with the wind chill tonight threw wednesday. So it will be April until I get mine out again.
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“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.”
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Jeff C
Member Joined: 08 Mar. 2010 Location: Centennial Colo Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Yesterday was 50 -60 not to bad for a January in Colorado. Today 20s and cold and a couple of inches of snow. Of course, sun out at 2 pm and most of it on the streets is gone. Still a little cold this week for an open jeep.
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redrunner
Member Joined: 01 Apr. 2016 Location: NW Iowa Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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-10 temp and -39 wind chill and dropping fast here, that would be a very very cold ride with an open top like mine has as well. I looked at it tonight in my heated shed and thought, I glad it is tucked away back in the corner staying warm, salt free and dry.
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“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.”
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Raj
Member Joined: 13 Oct. 2018 Location: Brampton Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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hi brother
I also bought cj2a n putting all disc brakes. Can you pls send pics of ur runs .....I mean of plumbing and if you are running proportional valve. I really need to see the pics and also where have you installed brake pressure switch. Thanks |
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Raj
Member Joined: 13 Oct. 2018 Location: Brampton Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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also where about do you live? Canada or USA?
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64CJ5
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 15 Nov. 2013 Location: NE Wyoming Status: Offline Points: 946 |
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Several years ago I put 11" brakes on my CJ5. After a trip to Idaho I did not have any brakes, and found the line broken on the rear axle. I had problems with the locally sourced rebuilt master cylinders that I bolted to Herm's bracket. After trying two I bought a new master cylinder and stopping has been quite positive ever since. I have no experience with disc brakes. On my M38 I am using hanging pedals with a dual master cyl. and original 9" brakes. This works but I hope to up grade. |
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64CJ5 "Eeyore"
01TJ "Tigger" 52 M38 Severely demilitarized, "Popeye" The Coast Guard Jeep. 14 JK "Jake" To Trust Government Defys Both History and Reason. PUBLIC LAND Owner/User |
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redrunner
Member Joined: 01 Apr. 2016 Location: NW Iowa Status: Offline Points: 308 |
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I can get some pictures tomorrow. I do have a proportional valve in it as well. The proportional valve has the pressure brake light switch built into it.
These are the valves I purchased to run the brake system correctly. One (E-6-6) Adjustable Proportioning Valve Distribution Block Disc Drum Brake Street Rod BLK Amazon One set of Pirate Mfg Residual Valve Disc Drum Brake Set Check Valve Hot Street Custom Rod 2 & 10 LB AmazonEdited by redrunner - 27 May 2019 at 3:04am |
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“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.”
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banga
Member Joined: 03 Jan. 2023 Location: Bay Area Ca Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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How much torque on the master cylinder banjo bolts? Don't want to over tighten!
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