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Midwest MIlitary Top Bow Set

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ovrlnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2008 at 9:01pm
wow! I love the look of the top! can't wait to get to that point. looking great!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2008 at 9:50pm
I love that top too!  I do hope that they shrink a little though.  Looks a little loose.
 
Isn't the door supposed to have a zipper in it for a hand turnsignal window?
 
Do you have a metal window frame?
 
Nobody ever answered my question "is the window frame one piece"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wyowillys46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2008 at 11:47pm
The driver's side door has the zipper for hand signals. Unfortunately I don't have window frames. They seem to be harder to find than original bows. The frames are two pieces. They use split rivets to attach to the canvas, with the window plastic sandwiched between the two.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JBizal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 9:32am
I am glad to see that you are happy with the bow set.  I have a question for you all, and a comment.
Question.  I was given a measurment for the horizontal rod between the rear bow and the forward bow for both the 2A and the 3A.  By the photo, I can see I was given bad information.  Can you provide me with the correct measurement, and is the 2A even supposed to have this rod?  I was told it should.
 
Comment.  We bent the windshield clamp just like the original we had as a sample.  We did not like the fit, but hey, it is original.  We are now looking at modifying our tooling to get a better fit without losing the clamping ability.  Improved clamp is coming.
 
Comment.  The tab for the side curtain rod with the radius is not as easily done as you would think.  We tried doing the radius, ended up not happy with the results and opted for the one we put on.  From the lay persons point of view, all this seems easy.  From the manufacturing point of view, everything requires another tool, set up, more labor etc.  We have weeks and weeks of labor involved just getting to where we are at, and the tooling investment to make these as good as they are totals thousands.  Now, I am not saying corners should be cut, but the question to be asked, is how far do you go in little detail vs the cost involved.  There will always be room for nitpicking on anything other than OEM.  Take the punch tab vs rivet topic.  Again, looking at it from a cost point of view, how many variations can one make, inventory and speculate on sales on a wim?  So far, we have only sold one set, the one you see.  I have 24 more sets in inventory and I can tell you that we have to sell 80% of the first run just to break even.  Having said that, we won't be offering variations of any type until they sell better.  Not bitching, just stating fact from the financial prospective.
Thanks,
John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 10:23am
John,
 
First off, welcome to the site.
Second,  I think you have done a wonderful job with the bows. (As I stated in the thread earlier).  They look great!
Third, I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job, just trying to be helpful.
 
This is how I put the radius in the tabs:
 
 
It really only takes less than a minute.  I actually mill a very slight slot in the bottom of the tab.  The slot is not necessary to form the radius, it just makes it easier to align the part onto the 1" round.  It can't be seen when welded.
 
As far as the rod that runs between the two bow assembles:
Through the information we have collected in the "Top Bows" thread, that rod was only used in 3rd generation bow sets for cj2a.
(see "Top Bows" page 38-39)
 
I don't know the length of the rod.  I can calculate it for you (at lunch time) but I don't currently have a set of bows to check it with.  As you know, the bows angle back about 3 degrees.  Art (48cj2a) would know,  he has a set.  You could PM him and find out the length.
 
Once again, not trying to tell you what to do, but I would omit the hole and either let the customer drill them (providing him with the dimensions) or else put them in at customer request.  Morgan does not want the hole because his jeep is 1st generation.  It is alot easier for the end customer to drill the hole if needed than it is to weld one up.  If I bought them and they had the hole, I would weld them up because I want 1st generation.  I know I'm being picky and I don't speak for everyone, but I do speak for some.  (just my opinion)
 
I wish you luck with your venture and I think that you are an excellent source for 2nd generation bow sets.  Some of us are picky and some are not.  I'm thinking that the majority, on this page are between very picky to reasonably picky. (just my guess)
 
I'll research the rod length and re-post when I get the info.
 
jpet
 
P.S.  I was curious.  Morgan said that he did not see a taper on his center bow ends.  Is your center bow 7/8" diameter?


Edited by jpet - 22 July 2008 at 11:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ovrlnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 11:54am
Jbizal. I think the bows look great and that you did a fantastic job. I wouldn't take offense to the comments. if they sell slow understand that people are may not be at that point in the resto or are saving pennies. be proud you offer a complete set of very nice top hardware.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 1:17pm
OK,  Rod length:
 
This is the bow configuration on my jeep. '46 CJ2A
 
On my jeep, the bow sockets are 30.75 apart edge to edge.  Using the hole location of 28.91 from the end of the rear upright bow (from the Top Bows drawing) ,uploads/1479/Top_bows.pdf and using a .082 offset (14ga inner wall tubing),
and compensating for the 3° angle of the front socket, and that the front socket is 1" higher vertically than the rear socket, I get a distance of 30.28 inches.  This of course is the maximum allowable length so you have to decide how much you want to remove for clearance.  Obviously if the 3/8 hole in your bows is different than 28.91 from the bottom of the rear upright.  You will have to make an adjustment.  I hope I have supplied you with the bow socket geometry that you need to assess that.
 
I do not have a rod to go by, just intended geometry.  I would still want to hear from someone who has the actual rod.  (Anyone?........ got a rod?....... anyone?)
 
Hope this helps!
 
jpet
 


Edited by jpet - 22 July 2008 at 1:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48cj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 5:58pm
Jeff,
 
Your box if full
 
Sorry - Since my 2A is a factory half cab, I do not have any rear anything.
Art C

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wyowillys46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by JBizal JBizal wrote:

I am glad to see that you are happy with the bow set.  I have a question for you all, and a comment.
Question.  I was given a measurment for the horizontal rod between the rear bow and the forward bow for both the 2A and the 3A.  By the photo, I can see I was given bad information.  Can you provide me with the correct measurement, and is the 2A even supposed to have this rod?  I was told it should.
 
Comment.  We bent the windshield clamp just like the original we had as a sample.  We did not like the fit, but hey, it is original.  We are now looking at modifying our tooling to get a better fit without losing the clamping ability.  Improved clamp is coming.
 
Comment.  The tab for the side curtain rod with the radius is not as easily done as you would think.  We tried doing the radius, ended up not happy with the results and opted for the one we put on.  From the lay persons point of view, all this seems easy.  From the manufacturing point of view, everything requires another tool, set up, more labor etc.  We have weeks and weeks of labor involved just getting to where we are at, and the tooling investment to make these as good as they are totals thousands.  Now, I am not saying corners should be cut, but the question to be asked, is how far do you go in little detail vs the cost involved.  There will always be room for nitpicking on anything other than OEM.  Take the punch tab vs rivet topic.  Again, looking at it from a cost point of view, how many variations can one make, inventory and speculate on sales on a wim?  So far, we have only sold one set, the one you see.  I have 24 more sets in inventory and I can tell you that we have to sell 80% of the first run just to break even.  Having said that, we won't be offering variations of any type until they sell better.  Not bitching, just stating fact from the financial prospective.
Thanks,
John


John,
Thanks for commenting on the bows you produced. I like that someone in your position will take the time to comment on why you did something. I can fully understand the financial part of your situation. Funding the mold to reproduce the early style parking light lens had me balking at first.

Like I said with my critique, it was all very minor items. Things that could be modified with a minor amount of fiddling.

Now to get them powdercoated! Those look good in black jpet!


Edited by wyowillys46 - 22 July 2008 at 6:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 7:19pm
Sorry Art,  I smoked my inbox so were good.
 
Morgan,
 
That's Mike's (lowenuf) handywork.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JBizal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2008 at 10:29pm
Hey guys, don't misunderstand my comments. The written word is making a come back, but the interpretation of same is not. I did not take offense to the critique, on the contrary, I encourage it. This is the first project that we ran "blind" on. We took someone else's samples and measurements and ran with them. Not my normal mode of operation. Additionally, we did not have a 2A near by to test fit. I bought the 3A from a friend and the timing for its arrival and departure was lucky.
I had my #1 nitpicker shop man, Karl, read your posts this morning. He went right out in the shop and came up with a way to fix the clamp issues and they will all be dead on from here on out. The next set of bows we make, we will eliminate the holes for the rods and radius the tabs. The non radius tabs were a judgment call.
Thanks again,
John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2008 at 8:19am
Here is an example of the spacer rod in 3rd generation bows.
 
Closeup view:
 
The actual length of the rod is 31.25" long.
Looks like I was an inch off..... hmmmm
 
Edit:  It looks to me in that picture that the rod would be less than 31.25.  (compensating for inner wall thickness & camera angle) Stand by and I'll confirm the measurement.
 


Edited by jpet - 23 July 2008 at 11:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2008 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

Isn't the door supposed to have a zipper in it for a hand turnsignal window?
There is one on the drivers side, but I'm inclined to think that 1st. generation tops (or at least early 1st. get.) did NOT have a zipper.
  • There is no zipper listed in the '45 parts list. (1st. gen. exclusively)
  • There IS a zipper in the '47 parts list, but that includes 2nd. gen. tops.  There's nothing to indicate it is or isn't exclusive to 2nd. gen. However, the part number is very high, 666460, which, if our thinking is correct, would make it a late "addition" to Willys inventory.
  • The 1st. gen. top in the Getty images Brachus posted recently does not have one.
  • My own door did not have one.  The PO cut a slit & covered it w/ a flap of white canvas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote trader_reed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2008 at 8:59pm
I had a set of early doors that also did NOT have the zipper. I'm not sure how early they where, they didn't have latches and used the early lower door hinge.
 
Just another one of those little mysteries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2008 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by JBizal JBizal wrote:

We took someone else's samples and measurements and ran with them. Not my normal mode of operation. Additionally, we did not have a 2A near by to test fit. I bought the 3A from a friend and the timing for its arrival and departure was lucky. 
John
 
John,
 
Through the research we have done in the "Top Bows" thread, and the "Top Bows & Doors" thread we have found the following facts.
Wall thickness of 16ga, 15ga,14,ga, and possibly 13ga
Angle of upright bows at 83°, 84°, & 85° (within the same set even)
Rivets or punch tabs at 2-5/8, 2-3/4, 2-7/8 from the end of the tube.
Center bows with and without a seam
Center bows with tapered ends and stepped down ends of various diameter
Center bow arches of 1-5/16, 1-3/8, 1-5/8
Tube spacers of various lengths
 
These are on original bows
 
I can go on and on but the point that I'm trying to make is that there is NO standard dimensions on the top bows as we've determined probably because different outside contractors did them differently or for whatever reason you can't get 100% accurate dimensions of the bows because there are no accurate bows to go by.
 
If you duplicated the original set that you have to the best of your ability with the available tools you have, you can honestly say (in my opinion) that your bows are accurate.  If all of the sets you make are consistent to each other then I would say that they are more accurate than the originals.
 
3/8 support rod:
If it were me,  I'd leave the length what it is now for CJ3A.  That way you don't have to stock special sets for 2A, & 3A.  The end customer can cut off what he does not need and may not even use the rod at all depending on his generation.  I think we've determined that the majority of 2A's did not use the rod.  Better to be too long than too short.
 
What do you think Morgan?
 
Door zippers:
I have some possibly enlighting information on door zippers that I will post in "Top Bows & Doors"  We are headed towards the technical side here and I don't want to start hijacking the thread.
 
Go to TB&D for some door info page 3.
 
jpet


Edited by jpet - 24 July 2008 at 12:46am
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