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Need help with distributor situation
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Bruce W View Drop Down
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Points: 9651 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2020 at 6:03am
  No, I am talking about side-to-side play, and I assumed you were too. With the limit being .005", if you can see it move it's probably too much. 
  Position the shaft with the points rubbing block on the high point of the cam, like you would when setting the points. Pull the shaft away from the points so the points will be as close as they can get at that point and measure the gap with a feeler gauge. Now push the shaft/cam towards the points so they will be as far open as they can get and measure the gap at that point. The difference between the two measurements will be the amount of movement. Or you could set up a dial indicator and measure it.

  I do have a couple of these in use on friends' jeeps and they seem to be working OK. Time will tell. 

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If you want to actually measure it a cheap dial indicator from HF would work set it up so that as you move the shaft from side to side the dial indicates how much it moves. If you guessed 1/16th A LOT less is still crap. As Bruce said .005" is the replacement point. .005" is a tiny amount of play to feel.
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For reference a typical human fingernail is about .015 thick.  If the shaft moves about 1/16" that equals .0625

My rule of thumb is that if it moves side to side replace the bushings.  However, doing that will only make the engine run better.  

The engine problem at this point seems to be that the timing needs to be set.  The stumbling of the engine (perhaps distributor bushing or worn shaft) is something you can wait to sort out later. 
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http://willysdistributors.com/
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The electronic dizzy in my Astro van had so much side play, the reluctor wheel was hitting the surrounding coil/pickup. Ran much better after replacement.
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I made a post last night which seems to not show up. It said "Try running one of your jumper wires from the (+) side of the bsttery to the (+) terminal on the distributor. This will eliminate any and all of the questions about switches. Just remember to remove the jumper before before leaving the Jeep, it can fry the points if left on for days." All the debate about side to side play comes down to this, if you can feel it you got too much. I think that weather you get it running now or not you should send your dist to Kurt at Willy's Distributors for a rebuild it is money well spent. He will replace bushings, insulators, replace and adjust the points, replace springs and such as needed in order to bring the advance curve back in spec, replace condensor, cap, rotor. And then run it on a distributor machine and verify that everything is working as it should! 
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Okay, so first thing I will deal with today is the coil.  My new coil says 6 volt, no external resistor needed.  My old one, from what I am able to make out, says Auto-Lite Cal 4001.  A search of that information did not turn up anything as far as to whether or not an external resistor is needed.  Is there a normal mounting spot where I might find a resistor if my Jeep has one?  Did they come with one?
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Originally posted by Beach Bum Beach Bum wrote:

I made a post last night which seems to not show up. It said "Try running one of your jumper wires from the (+) side of the bsttery to the (+) terminal on the distributor. This will eliminate any and all of the questions about switches. Just remember to remove the jumper before before leaving the Jeep, it can fry the points if left on for days." All the debate about side to side play comes down to this, if you can feel it you got too much. I think that weather you get it running now or not you should send your dist to Kurt at Willy's Distributors for a rebuild it is money well spent. He will replace bushings, insulators, replace and adjust the points, replace springs and such as needed in order to bring the advance curve back in spec, replace condensor, cap, rotor. And then run it on a distributor machine and verify that everything is working as it should! 

I just tried the test.  I would not start.  The message I posted before this one might explain why it didn't work if I have the wrong coil.  That is a question mark right now.  It is also a question of having close enough timing to get it to fire.  So I need to address that before I can confidently run your test.  I tried it because I don't know how far off the timing can be and have it still start, so I moved the distributor to about where it was when it last ran and gave it a shot.  As far as play in the distributor shaft I will be getting a more precise measurement in a while, but forget 1/16- Looking at it today I can see it's no where near that much.  A week ago or whenever this started I checked for play when I first removed the dust cover, just out of habit because that's what you do when working on stuff and it just seemed like a small amount.  In my memory it was like 1/16, in actuality it is far less.  As far as having the distributor rebuilt I will look into that once the Jeep is running or it's been narrowed down to the distributor.  I actually have a spare distributor included in those boxes of 2A parts that was given to me.  I have no idea of it's condition though.


Edited by wantcoffee99 - 29 May 2020 at 8:30pm
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http://cj-2a.com/techtips/timing/howto/l134-timing.pdf
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A 6 volt system would not normally use a resistor. If it had one it would be a ceramic block (ballpark 1" x 1" x 3") in the wire from the ignition switch to the coil. Here again, that jumper would bypass it in the event bubba put one in there. So, here's what your up against (in my opinion). These old Jeeps will run with a lot of stuff not perfect. But at 90% and 90% and 90% etc. one day something drops to 89%, the straw that broke the camels back. Can be very difficult which one it is since none of them are real great. Have you done a compression test? Your engine spins over pretty good for a 6 volt starter. Low compression make it easier for the starter to crank the engine. I know, a lot of questions...
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Originally posted by Beach Bum Beach Bum wrote:

A 6 volt system would not normally use a resistor. If it had one it would be a ceramic block (ballpark 1" x 1" x 3") in the wire from the ignition switch to the coil. Here again, that jumper would bypass it in the event bubba put one in there. So, here's what your up against (in my opinion). These old Jeeps will run with a lot of stuff not perfect. But at 90% and 90% and 90% etc. one day something drops to 89%, the straw that broke the camels back. Can be very difficult which one it is since none of them are real great. Have you done a compression test? Your engine spins over pretty good for a 6 volt starter. Low compression make it easier for the starter to crank the engine. I know, a lot of questions...

I have not done a compression test.  I have a tester that I picked up a while back for just that purpose but haven't gotten to yet.  I have a friend coming by this weekend to help me spin the engine while I look for timing marks on the flywheel.  I tried to do it myself, but I couldn't see any marks and need to get a closer look.  It seemed to have pretty good power when it was going.  I don't think it will do 60 mph, but 35 without building oil pressure up past 60 psi, and I took it up to 50 once to see if it would do it.  The needle on the oil pressure gauge jumped around like it was mad at me, but it reached 50 mph.  I can do a test on it.  I am curious as to what it is.
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Quick update:  I was able to get it timed, still won't start.  Will continue working on it later today.  I followed the procedure in link posted by Micah (http://cj-2a.com/techtips/timing/howto/l134-timing.pdf) Set the distributor so that clamps were at 3 and 9, rotated flywheel to where Ign. mark lined up with line by peephole, found that points were closed, rotated distributor clockwise until they began to open (0.01 feeler gauge entered), tightened down distributor, did the finger suction test on one and felt suction, rotated flywheel to TC, replaced rotor and took a picture- it was where I had wire 1.  Unless I made a mistake there, I think it must be an electrical issue.  I will keep you posted.
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Have you tested for spark OR power to the points yet?

If points are in closed position, you should not show voltage to the moving side of the points.


When points are open position, you MUST show voltage at the moving side of the points. W/ KEY ON

I use a test light, but voltmeter is fine.

Some people just watch to see if the points spark while somebody uses the starter, or open and close the points with a screwdriver. W/ KEY ON
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Originally posted by CT48 CT48 wrote:

Have you tested for spark OR power to the points yet?

If points are in closed position, you should not show voltage to the moving side of the points.


When points are open position, you MUST show voltage at the moving side of the points. W/ KEY ON

I use a test light, but voltmeter is fine.

Some people just watch to see if the points spark while somebody uses the starter, or open and close the points with a screwdriver. W/ KEY ON

I ran this test yesterday.  It is as you indicated it should be: power at points arm with points open, no power to test light with points closed.  Storm caused power outage here for most of the evening, right as battery was getting low from cranking.  Will continue today.
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  Confused Let me get this straight. You did the finger test and felt suction, then continued to turn the crankshaft until the timing marks appeared in the window? If so you are now at TDC with No.1 on the exhaust stroke, not on the compression stroke. No.4 is at TDC on its compression stroke, and your rotor should point at No.4, directly away from No.1. Or am I confused?
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Originally posted by Beach Bum Beach Bum wrote:

A 6 volt system would not normally use a resistor. If it had one it would be a ceramic block (ballpark 1" x 1" x 3") in the wire from the ignition switch to the coil. Here again, that jumper would bypass it in the event bubba put one in there. So, here's what your up against (in my opinion). These old Jeeps will run with a lot of stuff not perfect. But at 90% and 90% and 90% etc. one day something drops to 89%, the straw that broke the camels back. Can be very difficult which one it is since none of them are real great. Have you done a compression test? Your engine spins over pretty good for a 6 volt starter. Low compression make it easier for the starter to crank the engine. I know, a lot of questions...

Compression in order 1, 2, 3, 4: 110, 105, 110, 115.
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Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

  Confused Let me get this straight. You did the finger test and felt suction, then continued to turn the crankshaft until the timing marks appeared in the window? If so you are now at TDC with No.1 on the exhaust stroke, not on the compression stroke. No.4 is at TDC on its compression stroke, and your rotor should point at No.4, directly away from No.1. Or am I confused?
BW 

Sorry about the confusing write up.  I followed the guide, then tried to recall from memory everything that I did when writing it up.  My procedure may have been correct and my writing about it off.
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After continuing to try to get the engine to start, I did the timing again to be sure.  Set to IGN., distributor clips to 9 and 3, seen that points were closed so I rotated distributor clockwise until 0.01 feeler gauge entered gap, tightened down distributor, did finger test on 1 with quarter turn from TDC and felt suction.  And now I'm back to square one.  I will continue tomorrow.  One thing I will be checking is the precise measurement of play in the distributor shaft, though I do not think it is much.  Beyond that I'm not sure yet.
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