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Need help with distributor situation

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Beach Bum View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Beach Bum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 5:21pm
If I understand correctly you set the dizzy such that you had points set at opening at TDC but you felt suction when you rotated engine. If I am right about that then I believe this is your situation (I have no idea how you got here but no matter we go forward from here): 4 stroke motor, the 4 strokes are Intake-Compression-Power -Exhaust. You currently have your ignition timed to fire at TDC between exhaust and intake. Rotor in dizzy rotates 1 rotation for each 2 rotations of crankshaft. So, if you are one full rotation (360 derees) off related to crankshaft then you are 180 degrees off at the dizzy. You need to move your plug wires 180 degrees since it is not possible to rotate the dizzy 180 degrees (I think). So move each wire 2 spaces to the left. Clockwise or counter clockwise make no difference since you end up in the same place but it might make it easier to understand if you move the wires counter clockwise. This will mean that you are accounting for 1 full rotation of the crank. What you have now is Exhaust-FIRE-Intake-Compression-Power. You need to get to Intake-Compression-FIRE- Exhaust. make sense?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 6:35pm
  I had never heard of the "finger suck" test before I read it here, but it makes sense. If you have your finger in the spark plug hole and turn the crank so as to pull the piston downwards on the power stroke, it will "suck" on your finger because both valves are closed. If it were on the intake stroke, the intake valve would be open and you would not feel it "suck". So if the OP had the rotor pointing at #1 at TDC and then did the "suck test", it should be right.
BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wantcoffee99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Beach Bum Beach Bum wrote:

If I understand correctly you set the dizzy such that you had points set at opening at TDC but you felt suction when you rotated engine. If I am right about that then I believe this is your situation (I have no idea how you got here but no matter we go forward from here): 4 stroke motor, the 4 strokes are Intake-Compression-Power -Exhaust. You currently have your ignition timed to fire at TDC between exhaust and intake. Rotor in dizzy rotates 1 rotation for each 2 rotations of crankshaft. So, if you are one full rotation (360 derees) off related to crankshaft then you are 180 degrees off at the dizzy. You need to move your plug wires 180 degrees since it is not possible to rotate the dizzy 180 degrees (I think). So move each wire 2 spaces to the left. Clockwise or counter clockwise make no difference since you end up in the same place but it might make it easier to understand if you move the wires counter clockwise. This will mean that you are accounting for 1 full rotation of the crank. What you have now is Exhaust-FIRE-Intake-Compression-Power. You need to get to Intake-Compression-FIRE- Exhaust. make sense?

I will rotate the plug wires 2 spots and try.  The only thing I do not understand is how you can tell I'm between exhaust and intake.  Shouldn't you feel suction on either the intake or power stroke?  Bruce W answered that part in a post above.


Edited by wantcoffee99 - 01 June 2020 at 6:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 6:52pm
  Another test I've found that has worked for me, to determine whether a cylinder (that you know is at TDC) is on the compression/power stroke or the exhaust/intake stroke, is to find a piece of hose that is a snug fit in the spark plug hole or that has a clean-cut flat end on it that will seal on the head surface around the hole. Insert the hose in the hole or hold it tightly against the head and blow in the other end. If you make pressure, it's on the compression/power - valves are closed. If air blows through and you hear it escaping from the carburetor or exhaust, it's on exhaust/intake - both valves are open.
BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beach Bum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 7:17pm
I just jumped on here from work (which is a no no) because it occured to me that I could be mistaken. You could get suction on both down strokes. If the throttle plate is closed you would get it on intake stroke too. It is easiest to find the compression stroke because air will blow OUT the plug hole on comp but not exhaust. Sorry for the confusion. Troubleshooting ny long distance is tough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wantcoffee99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by Beach Bum Beach Bum wrote:

I just jumped on here from work (which is a no no) because it occured to me that I could be mistaken. You could get suction on both down strokes. If the throttle plate is closed you would get it on intake stroke too. It is easiest to find the compression stroke because air will blow OUT the plug hole on comp but not exhaust. Sorry for the confusion. Troubleshooting ny long distance is tough.

I appreciate your willingness to login at work.  Please don't get in trouble to help me though.  The throttle- this is a point I am confused on.  I never use my throttle switch.  The choke is the only lever I ever touch.  I tried the throttle lever when I first got the Jeep but it didn't change anything in how the engine ran or sounded, so I left it alone.  The guide (pg 13) calls for both the throttle and choke to be wide open.  I assumed the choke lever should be pushed in for it to be open, and pulled the throttle lever out, which was a guess.  I didn't think it would be able to affect the test very much anyway so I didn't really question it until seeing your comment.  Pulling the throttle cable out again today, the inner cable pulled through the dashboard a little and doesn't want to go back in.  I will check that the suction immediately follows pressure.


Edited by wantcoffee99 - 01 June 2020 at 8:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wantcoffee99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2020 at 9:15pm
Suction does indeed follow pressure with the rotor pointing where I have the number one plug wire.  I have one of these coming tomorrow.  I have power at the top of the coil, so if I understand everything correctly the distributor is beginning to look more and more like the culprit.  I was eventually able to get spark from the wire coming out of the top of the coil, just needed to try a different ground.  I am not able to get a spark from a spark plug wire fitted with an old plug.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2020 at 1:38am
  I don’t think the throttle valve will seal the bore enough to cause you to feel suction on your finger at hand-cranking speed. It passes enough air to maintain engine operation at idle speed. When using the hose trick I mentioned you can hear air passing the throttle valve if the air hat is off. 
  The throttle cable’s purpose is to hold an engine speed higher than idle without having to use your hands or feet. It is usually used to hold an “idle” speed higher than normal during cold operation until the engine warms up and can idle at the normal speed. It can also be used to hold an engine speed high enough for the generator to recharge the battery. There is a “fast idle” feature incorporated in the choke. When you have pulled the choke knob out about halfway you have closed the choke completely. After that, pulling the knob further out increases idle speed. You wouldn’t want to use that feature to charge the battery, etc, because you don’t need or want the choke on on a warm engine.  I don’t know why they recommend using the throttle on starting, except maybe for hand-crank starting. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2020 at 2:23am

  One way I have checked the timing on a new motor change to see if it is close is take # one spark plug out attach the #one plug wire to it and lay the plug so it is grounded on the head so I can watch it, then I place my thumb over the # one plug hole and crank the motor over to see if it is firing as it blows my thumb from the hole. This will let you know if it is firing and close to being timed. It can be adjusted from there to run.

   Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2020 at 3:11am
Originally posted by WeeWilly WeeWilly wrote:


  One way I have checked the timing on a new motor change to see if it is close is take # one spark plug out attach the #one plug wire to it and lay the plug so it is grounded on the head so I can watch it, then I place my thumb over the # one plug hole and crank the motor over to see if it is firing as it blows my thumb from the hole. This will let you know if it is firing and close to being timed. It can be adjusted from there to run.

   Jim

  Big smileLOLWink  You may be able to reduce the margin of error a bit by holding the end of the plug wire in the same hand that has its thumb in the hole. BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wantcoffee99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2020 at 8:45pm
The tester arrived today, I hooked it up to each wire/plug and it lit up for each one.  The light was rather dim, but it is a 6 volt system and I have no way of knowing how bright it should light up.  I only did each once, and I will do them again with a camera so I can compare to see if there is any difference in intensity of light or consistency of spark.  I think the timing is okay, so if spark at the plugs turns out to be okay I'm going to pull the fuel line to be sure it's pumping fuel.  As I posted early on, I did try unsuccessfully to start it with starting fluid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pplaut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2020 at 9:51pm
I posted this earlier. It sounds like you might have the same problem I have.
Here is the wiring order that I ended up with. I have no idea how I got here. I hired a mechanic to figure it out.

Using the normal #1 Distributor  
#1 Distributor  into #2 Cylinder (front to back not firing order on the head)
#2 Distributor into #4 Cylinder 
#3 Distributor into #3 Cylinder
#4 Distributor into #1 Cylinder
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pplaut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 June 2020 at 9:54pm
If it won't start with starting fluid (mine wouldn't either) you're not getting any fire (at the right time).
I too purchased the same light you have. I got flickers too. Turns out my timing is 180 degrees off (or so they told me).
Check my post on changing the way your distributor plugs into each cylinder. 
~P.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wantcoffee99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2020 at 3:56am

Big smile  It's running!  I've been here twice before only to have it not start up again, so I'll hold off on calling it fixed until it starts consistently.  It feels good to have it running though.  After doing the spark test with nothing concrete other than the fact that I got dim spark on all wires, I decided to try the points/condenser out of the distributor that was in one of those boxes of free stuff.  I just replaced the plate and all because it was easier.  The points were gapped to 0.028 on that one, and I can't get them to go closer together than that- they actually start to go further apart at one point when you attempt to turn the screw to the right.  Strange.  It's running better than when I first changed the points.  What is your guys' experience with Kaiser Willys?  I bought everything from them.  Do they generally sell good stuff?  I can't say conclusively that the points and/or condenser they sent me are no good, but it is looking that way.  Does anyone know a good brand of points?  I will follow up with another post in the next couple days as to how it's running (or if it's not).  I want to thank everyone again.  Your help/patience/willingness to walk me through what and how to do diagnoses has made the difference. I learned a lot about the ignition system on my Jeep, and I thank you for that as well.  It will no doubt come in handy again at some point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2020 at 2:52pm
Interesting that the start occurred after changing the entire plate, even with the points (and dwell) well out of spec. It makes me think that your original breaker plate was not making good contact to "ground".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beach Bum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 June 2020 at 5:34pm
I am going to stick with my earlier recomendation (all the easier now since you have been blessed with one or more extra distributors). Send one of them to Kurt at Willys distributors. It will be the best money you ever spend on your Jeep. And if you think you are OK because you have extras let me point out that all you have is extra used units. All probably tired and your experience level does not allow you to tell good from bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wantcoffee99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 June 2020 at 3:40am
Originally posted by Beach Bum Beach Bum wrote:

I am going to stick with my earlier recomendation (all the easier now since you have been blessed with one or more extra distributors). Send one of them to Kurt at Willys distributors. It will be the best money you ever spend on your Jeep. And if you think you are OK because you have extras let me point out that all you have is extra used units. All probably tired and your experience level does not allow you to tell good from bad.

I hear you.  I probably will go that route.  I'm also tempted:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pplaut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2020 at 1:07am
I have spent thousands of dollars with Kaiser Willy's. I think they are great!
I cant seem to keep a condenser from failing. I wonder if there is a electronic conversion kit?

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