Power Steering - It's Electric!
Printed From: The CJ2A Page
Category: CJ-2A Discussion Area
Forum Name: Modifications from original
Forum Description: Show off what mods you can do to a CJ-2A or questions about mods.
URL: https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=47630
Printed Date: 18 Apr. 2024 at 8:39pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Power Steering - It's Electric!
Posted By: pts211
Subject: Power Steering - It's Electric!
Date Posted: 29 July 2020 at 11:10pm
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I'm making a post seperate from my main build thread to highlight my steering plans. If you haven't came across my Qwaaazy8 build thread, you might check it out - I know some people enjoy it. https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/qwaaazy8-cj2a-build-thread_topic47370.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/qwaaazy8-cj2a-build-thread_topic47370.html Background If you've been following along on my build thread you might have caught that one day I want to design and build a "Tesla Willys". That's still a few years out, but there are still a few things I plan to experiment with and prove out. The one I'll discuss here is electric power assisted steering, or EPAS for short. It just makes sense for an all electric Jeep to have electric power steering. I hate waiting, and as I've researched ways to go about this I've gotten really excited at how easy it appears be in it's simplest form. I decided that I'll be proving out one method on my "mostly stock" CJ2A. First let me go over a few approaches to this. Electric over hydraulic This would be most similar to what people adapt today, the only difference would be the hydraulic pump would be electric instead of mechanically driven by the motor. Pros:
Cons:
Electric Rack and Pinion Some modern vehicles use an electric rack and pinion like is pictured below.  Pros:
Cons:
Electric Power Assist Steering Column An alternative is having the power assist in the steering column. To put it simply, this puts an electric motor in line with the steering shaft. It uses torque sensors to detect force being applied to the steering wheel and activate the motor and "assist" the driver to turn in the desired direction. This option would utilize the factory steering box and other components, the motor would just assist the driver with added steering force.  Pros:
Cons:
From the above I'm choosing to go with an EPAS column, I was able to pick one up out of a Toyota with the u-jointed shaft, column, and the motor controller for under $150. The Toyota module I'm using will default to a "limp mode" amount of steering force since the Jeep won't have the rest of the Toyota's CAN bus that the module expects. By all accounts this will be optimized for around 45mph and is well balanced. Since I'll need it most at low speeds, I'm hoping it'll work fine for my case. Otherwise I might have to do some reverse engineering on the CAN bus. Another concern is wear on steering components. Can a 2A handle the added force? Since I've seen multiple people pulling on Stan's steering wheel to turn under pressure, and his steering seems to hold up... I'm not too worried about that. If the motor manages to overpower the stock steering I'll be very happy. I'm mostly curious, will it supply enough power to make for a nice driving experience? As part of this I expect I might need to invest in a nice battery to supplement the alternator output when doing low speed steering. Another bit of good news is that even if the motor dies I'll just fall back to full manual steering. I plan to mount a switch to turn it on and off to compare how much it helps. And to let others experience a before and after effect. Fitment This conversion has had me excited from day one because the only thing that has to be changed is the steering column itself. If this works as I have imagined a swap could be done less than a few hours. Not only that, but it should tuck up under the dash - I don't think many people will know that it's even there unless they are looking for it. Several weeks ago when designing our seating mods we held it in place and got a good idea for how it can look.   Making the Modifications Last weekend we finally reached a point where we could think about the steering again and got to it. Step one: Cut the stock steering shaft. This mod requires that we splice the power steering module in line with the steering column.   With that cut down we needed to adapt the u-joint connection from the EPAS unit. We got on the lathe to make it a press fit into the 2A steering column and welded it in.   Here you can see it coming together. At this point we've adapted the stock CJ2A steering column to the EPAS unit. It's not pictured but we also adapted the CJ2A steering wheel spline to the end of the column. This will allow us to mount the stock steering wheel if desired, but for now the plan is to use a 15" wheel with the same spline. Another note the u-joint shaft might be avoidable, but is purposeful here for two reasons.
This is where we are at so far. In the coming week we'll be mounting it all in, hooking up the electrical, and seeing how it works. Stick around, hopefully we'll be steering in circles with our pinkies very soon! ------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
Replies:
Posted By: Siskiwit
Date Posted: 29 July 2020 at 11:50pm
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I am very interested in your project. Please let me and everybody else know the progress and issues involved. ------------- '48 2a - '46 2a - '54 3b - '70 cj5 and a bunch of accessories. |
Posted By: chasendeer
Date Posted: 29 July 2020 at 11:58pm
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Looks good!! Can we get part numbers? Jay
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Posted By: Daniel_Buck
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 2:31am
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I'm quite curious about how well that column mounted electric motor works!. I would love to have a little bit of extra steering power in my 33 Chevy, but I don't want to run a power steering rack or pump. And I don't NEED power steering all that bad, but a little extra help would be nice. ------------- 2a #40500 |
Posted By: Flatfender Ben
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 4:22am
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Very cool idea!! Looking forward to updates! ------------- 1946 cj2a desert dog 1946 cj2a bulldog 1948 cj2a blue jeep 1953 cj3b yard dog 1955 willys wagon 1955 willys pickup 1956 willys pickup boomer 1960 fc 170 1968 jeepster commando 1990 Grand wagoneer |
Posted By: Oldpappy
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 3:06pm
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This is a very interesting and creative innovation. Many have used electric vacuum pumps on hot rods to have power brakes when there is not enough room for a regular brake booster, but I have never even thought about electric power steering. I guess I am behind the curve on modern automotive designs. Bravo! ------------- If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there! |
Posted By: OnlyOneDR
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 5:59pm
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This is great. At one point kits were made making it possible to do this same "column assist" with hydraulic power as well (called a steering servo). A torsion bar is mounted inside a valved box that interposes the steering column to add power assist to a manual system. Same principle as how a modern recirculating ball power steering box valving works without the worm and sector shaft. Speedway motors sells a modern version of this: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Sweet-Mfg-301-30250-Power-Steering-Servo-250-Medium,29596.html?sku=91030250&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjPOhtbT16gIVA6_ICh3zXQmfEAQYBCABEgKlYfD_BwE" rel="nofollow - https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Sweet-Mfg-301-30250-Power-Steering-Servo-250-Medium,29596.html?sku=91030250&utm_medium=CSEGoogle&utm_source=CSE&utm_campaign=CSEGOOGLE&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjPOhtbT16gIVA6_ICh3zXQmfEAQYBCABEgKlYfD_BwE I am sure curious to see how the "limp" mode works out. I know when the engine is not running in my 2014 Chevy 1500 then vehicle provides no power to the electric rack and it is a bear to steer. This would be better because you still have the same steering ratio that the box gives you. ------------- Searching for time to put it all together... 1950 CJ-3A #37751 In Pieces 1969 Chevy Blazer Resto-Mod Waiting for its day... 2001 Nissan Frontier Crawler Adventure Rig |
Posted By: pts211
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 8:59pm
Jay I don't have specific part numbers. But I picked up a steering column, u-joint shaft, and the steering control module from a 2012 Toyota Prius for this conversion. I know there are several model years that should do the trick, either from about 2007-2010 or from about 2012-2014 if I recall. Many are the same, there are also few other manufactures who have very similar mechanisms that should work, I just went with what I could find the most information about. ------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
chasendeer wrote:Posted By: pts211
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 9:00pm
Thanks for that info, that seems to be a very similar concept indeed - just with hydraulic. I didn't realize that was a thing! ------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
Posted By: Oldpappy
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 9:02pm
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Did you pin the welded joints ? ------------- If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there! |
Posted By: pts211
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 9:18pm
We turned each end so they would be a nice press fit to establish parallel, then did a full welded bead around the joint. ------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
Posted By: Metcalf
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 9:47pm
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Neat stuff! It will be interesting to see how the increased force wears the pin in the Ross box over time compared to stock. That would be my only real worry....and maybe throw an extra bellcrank pin in the parts bag! ------------- 42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck. |
Posted By: rocnroll
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 10:06pm
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My concerns would be along the same lines as Metcalf raised. Additional force applied to pieces not designed for that force. Interesting option I guess but I'll stick with a Saginaw......good luck with it and kudos for trying something different. Hope it works out well for you. ------------- '47 CJ2A PU '48 CJ2A Lefty "Common sense is not that common" |
Posted By: pts211
Date Posted: 30 July 2020 at 10:37pm
That was an initial concern when I started thinking it through. But, then I thought of it this way. Imagine how much force a full grown man is able to put on the steering box with the ~9" lever (the stock steering wheel radius) that it comes with. Although this is a beefy motor, I don't think (in this configuration) that it is even technically capable of applying more force than a human driver can in our Jeeps. So for now, I don't consider this as a device that is applying force in places they weren't designed for, instead it just reduces where the force comes from. ex. 50% human, 50% electric. That said, in day to day operation I don't expect any additional wear. However, in the extreme cases I imagine it could help incur damage. I'm certainly looking forward to exploring the effects! ------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
Posted By: Ol' Unreliable
Date Posted: 01 Aug. 2020 at 10:31pm
That's weird. Electric power steering? Just last week I replaced the water pump in my '04 Grand Cherokee and discovered that the radiator fan is hydraulic powered. Is everything backward lately??   ------------- There's a reason it's called Ol' Unreliable |
Posted By: rocnroll
Date Posted: 02 Aug. 2020 at 3:41am
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So in an 'unpowered' state does the column feel just like it would in original condition? ------------- '47 CJ2A PU '48 CJ2A Lefty "Common sense is not that common" |
Posted By: pts211
Date Posted: 03 Aug. 2020 at 3:06pm
Yep, it should feel just like stock. I plan to put a separate power switch to it so I can do testing with it on versus off to compare. ------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
Posted By: Metcalf
Date Posted: 03 Aug. 2020 at 6:31pm
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Don't get me wrong, I love the concept. I do think that there will be 'more' input force now from the steering assist. I don't think there is anything from the driver giving 100% and the assist giving more? There might also be less 'kick-back' force also which could be nice. I have seen increased and accelerated wear on the pins in Ross boxes when used with front lockers and people cranking on the wheel harder. I can't wait to hear the report after a year or two of use. Rebuilding the box more often isn't the end of the world either. ------------- 42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck. |
Posted By: Bob W
Date Posted: 03 Aug. 2020 at 9:54pm
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I've been considering installing a steering column Electric Power Steering on my Flattie for some time now. My concern has been that these units were not designed to provide the amount of assist necessary for rock crawling. That said, it seems that if the EPS unit begins to overheat from excessive use it will just provide less assist until it cools off. I searched the web for anyone who has already tried this conversion and the only thing I could find were Willys Utility series vehicles that didn't seem to be used off road, but they reported good results. A friend of mine has a GM EPS unit on his CJ-3B and he also reports good results. I'd like to actually drive his CJ-3B for myself before I commit to doing the conversion on mine. Here is his 3B....  ------------- Bob W mailto:52cj3a@gmail.com" rel="nofollow - Email http://www.cj3a.info" rel="nofollow - The CJ-3A Information Page |
Posted By: pts211
Date Posted: 12 Aug. 2020 at 9:49pm
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Mounting Things Up With everything fabbed up we did a test fit of the EPAS unit. In the picture below you'll see the left image where we had left too much of the stock steering shaft. The adjustable u-joint shaft would save us in the event we were too short since it extends, but we were right about 2" shy of making it. Andrew had some free time a few days later and cut it down further and welded it back in - now we have the setup on the right. Andrew said that he made it as short as he could. The shaft goes becomes solid tube as it enters the gearbox so this is just about as short as we could go without a lot more work.  Lucky for us this length is perfect. We got the system all mounted up and were happy to see it all fits together.  Steering with our pinkies! (First power up!) Once we had the steering test mounted the time was finally here. We hooked up the electron transport cables and got our first glimpse at if our work might pay off. The result? I think it works! I think Andrew and Dustin were impressed, even I was surprised. I was confident in it all along, but there's still something special about seeing it actually work, for real. We could steer with no problem on these new tires on rough concrete. Small details With a working proof of concept I proceeded to do a few necessary touch ups. I painted the steering column and the gearbox on the EPAS unit. With it painted I think it will blend in to the Jeep really well and be even more hidden.  A more functional problem was making sure we didn't have a ton of slop on the steering wheel. We needed a bushing at the top of the steering column much like the old one. I ran up tot he robotics shop and made up a bushing to press into the steering wheel/steering column tube so everything was nice and snug.    With the bushing in and everything painted I had a ready the Jeep's EPAS unit ready for final install. Next up we'll be working to get all the rest of the Jeep back together and wired. I'm hoping to be driving the Jeep on the road and testing the EPAS in the real world in the next few days! Updates to come.
------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
Posted By: pts211
Date Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 4:38pm
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IT WORKS! I just updated my main build thread: https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/qwaaazy8-cj2a-build-thread_topic47370_post483717.html#483717" rel="nofollow - https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/qwaaazy8-cj2a-build-thread_topic47370_post483717.html#483717 I don't have a lot to share specific to the power steering other than - it works! You can see some videos of the Jeep driving on the other thread. I'm very pleased with how the steering feels - as good as some of the modern vehicles I've driven. The toggle switch to turn it on and off is excellent, not just for comparing, but also for driving. I find myself turning it off at times when at "high" speeds (40-50) just because it can be a little touchy. We did a slight off-road test and it is holding up just fine. Of course, I don't have anything around here that compares to the Jeeping I'm used to. I think CFFC will be a great test ground for it, especially over long days. I'll update as I have things to share! If you're going to CFFC, I'll see you there. Come talk to me and Andrew - we'll happily show you in person and let you try it for yourself!
------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
Posted By: oldmansimek
Date Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 6:48pm
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Ill throw this in. A few years ago I installed electric power steering in my buddies Unimog 404, I believe it was from a Saturn Vue steering column style. I think he had to buy a controller for it but I could not believe how well it worked on such a big truck with 40" tires, still works great and he is hard on it. |
Posted By: unclemoak
Date Posted: 07 Sep. 2020 at 8:30pm
I'll definitely be taking a look at this during the FCT.
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Posted By: chasendeer
Date Posted: 08 Sep. 2020 at 8:40pm
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Berry cool!! What are the electrical requirements with this? Just a switched 12v? Thanks Jay
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Posted By: Siskiwit
Date Posted: 09 Sep. 2020 at 12:36am
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I have looked into doing the electric steering on my Willy’s last year but chickened out for the lack of knowledge. Thanks for the taking the time to document your journey. I’m going to look into doing the same with the Toyota manual box from the ‘90s. I was afraid of the 19:1 gearbox being being too slow for slow motion steering but with the power upgrade I think it will be ok to drive. The on off switch is a great option. Thanks for posting all your progress. ------------- '48 2a - '46 2a - '54 3b - '70 cj5 and a bunch of accessories. |
Posted By: pts211
Date Posted: 09 Sep. 2020 at 9:53pm
Jay - switched 12v and leads direct* from the battery. *One tidbit I realized I forgot to document - the switch on the dash is for the 12V enable on the electric motor controller AND to enable a continuous duty solenoid I added on the main power wires coming from the battery. I don't want anything draining the battery with the Jeep off, after some testing I discovered that my particular controller was drawing about 400mA when disabled. Realistically not a big deal, but I put a solenoid in anyways just so I could know that nothing is leaching power when everything is switched off.
------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
Posted By: chasendeer
Date Posted: 28 Nov. 2020 at 7:23pm
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So what is the verdict on this??? How did it do at FCT?? Thanks Jay
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Posted By: Nick_
Date Posted: 30 Nov. 2020 at 7:38pm
I'm also very interested!
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Posted By: Stev
Date Posted: 30 Nov. 2020 at 9:16pm
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So you kept the two weak parts of the CJ2A steering system  and added electric assist  - interesting - at least you will be able to suffer the same steering failure as the stock guys and experience the play in the steering for the true old jeep enthusiast experience.The weak parts are the Ross Steering Box (bushings and pins on the sector shaft) and the bell crank pin that mounts to the frame under the radiator. ------------- Stev 1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored |
Posted By: pts211
Date Posted: 03 Dec. 2020 at 4:47pm
Sorry to keep y'all waiting. But verdict is: it. is. awesome! From scenic drives like Antero to technical trails like Chinamans gulch the power steering worked flawlessly this year. Even though I'm still fully open with stock gearing I was much less stressed on technical trails because I didn't have to worry about my ability to steer quickly and precisely. Not to mention, I could hold on with one arm and steer with another! ------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
Posted By: pts211
Date Posted: 03 Dec. 2020 at 4:48pm
Exactly! Gotta keep the purists somewhat happy.  I got over the slop years ago when I started driving 2A's. Although it would be nice for it to go away, I'm used to it enough at this point.------------- Paul S - son of Ricco 1947 CJ2A - "Walker" 1948 CJ2A a.k.a. "Lumpy" (Dad's Jeep) |
Posted By: jeepsterjim
Date Posted: 24 July 2022 at 7:56pm
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Any updates? Has anyone installed EPS with Saginaw manual steering? What about turn signals? I'm very interested in EPS for my '47 2A which will have manual saginaw. Thanks, Jim ------------- Jim CJ-2A - 81299 |