Midwest MIlitary Top Bow Set
Printed From: The CJ2A Page
Category: Suggestions, Comments and Testing
Forum Name: Special Accessories
Forum Description: Special Accessories
URL: https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=8631
Printed Date: 19 Apr. 2024 at 7:27am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Midwest MIlitary Top Bow Set
Posted By: wyowillys46
Subject: Midwest MIlitary Top Bow Set
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 8:27pm
My bows from Midwest Military are here!. Unfortunately, you'll have to wait till Sunday for the review.  I'm still playing with them. ------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
Replies:
Posted By: hillbilly21
Date Posted: 19 July 2008 at 8:53pm
http://www.marylandjeepclub.org/phpBB3/posting.php?mode=smilies&f=19#"> ------------- 1946 CJ2a POW-MIA 51 M38 ORIGINAL PRES NCFFC www.eastcoastwillys.org" rel="nofollow - www.eastcoastwillys.org hillbillystoys.phanfare.co |
Posted By: wyowillys46
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 4:18am
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Unfortunately the review will be postponed until my photo hosting website is back up. That's a lot easier than updating my webpage.
------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
Posted By: wyowillys46
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 6:37am
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Ok. Here's the review finally. I placed my order for a top bow set on the 14th. Recieved them on the 18th. Very fast shipping. They came well packed in a cardboard box stuffed with newspaper. They looked like they hadn't even moved around in the box. The set includes 15 pieces. I also ordered door jamb striker plates, but they haven't arrived yet.  The ends are cut clean and square.  The doglegs aren't bent as cleanly as jpet's (in my opinion), but they're so close it's nitpicking.  ------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
Posted By: wyowillys46
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 6:39am
Connecting tabs for the door rods are neatly done. As are the brackets for the vertical jamb rods. Wish I could weld this well.  The bows use punch tabs instead of rivets.  ------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
Posted By: wyowillys46
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 6:43am
Here is the front section installed. The rear section includes horizontal rods. I'm pretty sure this is for 3A's as they were too short to work on the 2A. Remember that the 3A had the seats moved further back on the tub. This shortened the wheelhouse length and moved the front bow sockets back also.  Here's the windshield clamps for the door rods.  ------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
Posted By: wyowillys46
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 6:46am
The front top roof installed (and a door). I'm hoping the top will shrink with age some more. And the rest of the cab. This is a New Life Canvas top. It would appear that Mrs. Roth forgot to install some Common Sense fasteners for the side curtain rear roof seam! No problem. Also the door handles have not been installed yet.  ------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
Posted By: wyowillys46
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 6:56am
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Conclusion I think I'll give the Midwest Bow Set a 9.5/10. Why not a 10? First, I had originally expected them to have rivets and not punch tabs. I'm still not sure whats correct for 1946 but the punch tabs work just fine. This is more of a mental thing than a functional problem. If/when the punch-tabs wear out, I'll just replace them with rivets. The only real functional problem I had was with the windshield clamps. They need to be deburred. They have very sharp edges from the metal being punched out. The radius on the clamp that is supposed to match the windshield frame tubing is incorrect. It's too small. Installing the clamp without enlargening the radius will scratch paint. DAMHIK. I also didn't measure tubing size. It looks like the curved horizontal pieces may be slightly undersized. They are not swaged on the ends like original bows. But it doesn't detract from the function. I was simply amazed at how easily the bows went together. And they're solid! Absolutely no play whatsoever once the whole thing is installed. I was thiniking about welding up the holes that accomodate the rear horizontal rods (for the 3A), but decided it wasn't worth it. I'll probably end up having the bows powdercoated once I'm done tweaking the windshield clamps. Why did I buy the Midwest bows? I needed door hardware. Namely the vertical jamb rods and the horizontal rods. After waiting 2 years for a set of bows, I had grown impatient and wanted the whole thing. It was simply a matter of timing, that I chose to go with the Midwest bows. I hope this has been helpful. ------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
Posted By: Lomar15
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 7:48am
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It does look nice, Where did you get the doors from? how long did it take to get the top from New life canvas? Bob ------------- 46 CJ2A #48777 42 MB Slat Grill 119898 Frame 51 M38 Body 42 MB #155950 Spen Trailer http://picasaweb.google.com/lomar15CJ2A - http://picasaweb.google.com/lomar15CJ2A |
Posted By: jpet
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 11:24am
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Morgan, The set looks very good to me. Congrats! The punched out notches in the center bows look better that the ones that I make. One suggestion that I would make for Midwest would be to bend a radius in the tab where it is welded to the upright. This would be pretty simple to do. Obviously what they have is functional.
 If you want, I can send you some rivets. It would be easy to fill the tabs in and install rivets. The punch tabs do look very good!
Do you think you could show us a picture of the ends of the tube spacer?
Looking Good!
jpet
Edit: Ya know, nobody has ever answered my question about how to keep the windshield defrosted in these jeeps in the winter. (now that we are getting tops)
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Posted By: lowenuf
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 12:48pm
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very nice Morgan!!!! in comparison to originals, IIRC, the punch tabs on my last set had a sharper point to it, but other than that, the bows look good :) thx for the review..low ------------- 45 #10012 45 #10033 ACM #47 45 #10163 ACM #188 57 CJ5 Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick |
Posted By: bkreutz
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 3:42pm
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Jpet, Regarding the defrost situation. I can think of a number of answers. 1. fan blowing on the windshield (remember school buses?), 2. Tilt the bottom of the w/s out (kinda chilly), 3. Military made a electric defroster kit (seen them on ebay from time to time). 4. Press palm of hand on inner glass until the ice melts and then look through the hand print (this one came from a Swedish friend talking about driving a VW beetle in the winter in Sweden). ------------- Gale 47 CJ2A 142857 47 Bantam T3-C 16271 Photo page http://bkreutz.smugmug.com/" rel="nofollow - http://bkreutz.smugmug.com/ |
Posted By: sean
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 4:59pm
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Morgan:
How do the convoluted bends at the front of the door rod look? Sean ------------- http://www.CJ-2A.com" rel="nofollow - CJ2A Data site http://www.nulltime.com/jeep" rel="nofollow - 2A #16279 |
Posted By: Jus*Jack
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 4:59pm
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One more suggestion for defrosting...Move South! <g> ------------- Seeya! <Jack> '48 CJ2A 197207 "Junebug" '48 CJ2A 191237 "Turquoise" |
Posted By: wyowillys46
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 5:21pm
I knew someone would ask that. I forgot to take photos of them. I'll get those today. jpet, I had noticed that the tabs weren't radiused like originals. Like the doglegs, it's a very small non-functional nitpick. The doors and lower sockets came from Walcks. His door frames are made here in the US. The only suggestion I have would be to powder-coat or repaint them before having canvas installed. The paint chips easily. It's been so long since I got the top from New Life Canvas. But, I want to say at least 6 months for it to get to me. ------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
sean wrote:Posted By: jpet
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 8:58pm
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Morgan,
How did you get your top made without the bows? I thought you had to send her your bows so that she can fit the canvas toit.
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Posted By: lowenuf
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 9:05pm
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if i am not mistaken, only the door frames need to be sent to Mona....the door frames are all that get completely sewn on to the metal...i think she has a mock up of a set of bows for fitment while sewing the bulk of the tops....or when she took delivery of the business, she got the template patterns of the material for cutting..... ------------- 45 #10012 45 #10033 ACM #47 45 #10163 ACM #188 57 CJ5 Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick |
Posted By: wyowillys46
Date Posted: 21 July 2008 at 11:35pm
Here's pics of the door rod.    I've no doubt got the clamps installed backwards or upside down or some screwy way. Mrs. Roth needs only the door frames if you have a later style top (handles on the doors). If you have an earlier one (handles on the jambs) you need to send her those rods in addition to the door frames. ------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
Posted By: ovrlnd
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 2:01am
| wow! I love the look of the top! can't wait to get to that point. looking great! |
Posted By: jpet
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 2:50am
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I love that top too! I do hope that they shrink a little though. Looks a little loose.
Isn't the door supposed to have a zipper in it for a hand turnsignal window?
Do you have a metal window frame?
Nobody ever answered my question "is the window frame one piece"
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Posted By: wyowillys46
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 4:47am
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The driver's side door has the zipper for hand signals. Unfortunately I don't have window frames. They seem to be harder to find than original bows. The frames are two pieces. They use split rivets to attach to the canvas, with the window plastic sandwiched between the two.
------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
Posted By: JBizal
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 2:32pm
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I am glad to see that you are happy with the bow set. I have a question for you all, and a comment.
Question. I was given a measurment for the horizontal rod between the rear bow and the forward bow for both the 2A and the 3A. By the photo, I can see I was given bad information. Can you provide me with the correct measurement, and is the 2A even supposed to have this rod? I was told it should.
Comment. We bent the windshield clamp just like the original we had as a sample. We did not like the fit, but hey, it is original. We are now looking at modifying our tooling to get a better fit without losing the clamping ability. Improved clamp is coming.
Comment. The tab for the side curtain rod with the radius is not as easily done as you would think. We tried doing the radius, ended up not happy with the results and opted for the one we put on. From the lay persons point of view, all this seems easy. From the manufacturing point of view, everything requires another tool, set up, more labor etc. We have weeks and weeks of labor involved just getting to where we are at, and the tooling investment to make these as good as they are totals thousands. Now, I am not saying corners should be cut, but the question to be asked, is how far do you go in little detail vs the cost involved. There will always be room for nitpicking on anything other than OEM. Take the punch tab vs rivet topic. Again, looking at it from a cost point of view, how many variations can one make, inventory and speculate on sales on a wim? So far, we have only sold one set, the one you see. I have 24 more sets in inventory and I can tell you that we have to sell 80% of the first run just to break even. Having said that, we won't be offering variations of any type until they sell better. Not bitching, just stating fact from the financial prospective.
Thanks,
John
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Posted By: jpet
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 3:23pm
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John,
First off, welcome to the site.
Second, I think you have done a wonderful job with the bows. (As I stated in the thread earlier). They look great!
Third, I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job, just trying to be helpful.
This is how I put the radius in the tabs:
 It really only takes less than a minute. I actually mill a very slight slot in the bottom of the tab. The slot is not necessary to form the radius, it just makes it easier to align the part onto the 1" round. It can't be seen when welded.
 As far as the rod that runs between the two bow assembles:
Through the information we have collected in the "Top Bows" thread, that rod was only used in 3rd generation bow sets for cj2a.
(see "Top Bows" page 38-39)
http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=7798&PN=38 - http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=7798&PN=38
I don't know the length of the rod. I can calculate it for you (at lunch time) but I don't currently have a set of bows to check it with. As you know, the bows angle back about 3 degrees. Art (48cj2a) would know, he has a set. You could PM him and find out the length.
Once again, not trying to tell you what to do, but I would omit the hole and either let the customer drill them (providing him with the dimensions) or else put them in at customer request. Morgan does not want the hole because his jeep is 1st generation. It is alot easier for the end customer to drill the hole if needed than it is to weld one up. If I bought them and they had the hole, I would weld them up because I want 1st generation. I know I'm being picky and I don't speak for everyone, but I do speak for some. (just my opinion)
I wish you luck with your venture and I think that you are an excellent source for 2nd generation bow sets. Some of us are picky and some are not. I'm thinking that the majority, on this page are between very picky to reasonably picky. (just my guess)
I'll research the rod length and re-post when I get the info.
jpet
P.S. I was curious. Morgan said that he did not see a taper on his center bow ends. Is your center bow 7/8" diameter?
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Posted By: ovrlnd
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 4:54pm
| Jbizal. I think the bows look great and that you did a fantastic job. I wouldn't take offense to the comments. if they sell slow understand that people are may not be at that point in the resto or are saving pennies. be proud you offer a complete set of very nice top hardware. |
Posted By: jpet
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 6:17pm
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OK, Rod length:
This is the bow configuration on my jeep. '46 CJ2A
 On my jeep, the bow sockets are 30.75 apart edge to edge. Using the hole location of 28.91 from the end of the rear upright bow (from the Top Bows drawing) , http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/uploads/1479/Top_bows.pdf - uploads/1479/Top_bows.pdf and using a .082 offset (14ga inner wall tubing),
and compensating for the 3° angle of the front socket, and that the front socket is 1" higher vertically than the rear socket, I get a distance of 30.28 inches. This of course is the maximum allowable length so you have to decide how much you want to remove for clearance. Obviously if the 3/8 hole in your bows is different than 28.91 from the bottom of the rear upright. You will have to make an adjustment. I hope I have supplied you with the bow socket geometry that you need to assess that.
I do not have a rod to go by, just intended geometry. I would still want to hear from someone who has the actual rod. (Anyone?........ got a rod?....... anyone?)
Hope this helps!
jpet
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Posted By: 48cj2a
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 10:58pm
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Jeff,
Your box if full
Sorry - Since my 2A is a factory half cab, I do not have any rear anything. ------------- Art C USAF (Retired) 47 CJ2A #134955 Project 48 CJ2A #206759 62 L6226 Station Wagon #58167 10900 45 T3-C #191 Project http://www.bantamt3c.com http://www.48cj2a.com |
Posted By: wyowillys46
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 11:54pm
John, Thanks for commenting on the bows you produced. I like that someone in your position will take the time to comment on why you did something. I can fully understand the financial part of your situation. Funding the mold to reproduce the early style parking light lens had me balking at first. Like I said with my critique, it was all very minor items. Things that could be modified with a minor amount of fiddling. Now to get them powdercoated! Those look good in black jpet! ------------- 1946 #27869 Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
Posted By: jpet
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 12:19am
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Sorry Art, I smoked my inbox so were good.
Morgan,
That's Mike's (lowenuf) handywork.
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Posted By: JBizal
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 3:29am
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Hey guys, don't misunderstand my comments. The written word is making a come back, but the interpretation of same is not. I did not take offense to the critique, on the contrary, I encourage it. This is the first project that we ran "blind" on. We took someone else's samples and measurements and ran with them. Not my normal mode of operation. Additionally, we did not have a 2A near by to test fit. I bought the 3A from a friend and the timing for its arrival and departure was lucky.
I had my #1 nitpicker shop man, Karl, read your posts this morning. He went right out in the shop and came up with a way to fix the clamp issues and they will all be dead on from here on out. The next set of bows we make, we will eliminate the holes for the rods and radius the tabs. The non radius tabs were a judgment call. Thanks again, John |
Posted By: jpet
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 1:19pm
Here is an example of the spacer rod in 3rd generation bows.
 Closeup view:
 The actual length of the rod is 31.25" long.
Looks like I was an inch off..... hmmmm
Edit: It looks to me in that picture that the rod would be less than 31.25. (compensating for inner wall thickness & camera angle) Stand by and I'll confirm the measurement.
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Posted By: sean
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 1:50am
------------- http://www.CJ-2A.com" rel="nofollow - CJ2A Data site http://www.nulltime.com/jeep" rel="nofollow - 2A #16279 |
Posted By: trader_reed
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 1:59am
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I had a set of early doors that also did NOT have the zipper. I'm not sure how early they where, they didn't have latches and used the early lower door hinge.
Just another one of those little mysteries.
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Posted By: jpet
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 4:28am
John,
Through the research we have done in the "Top Bows" thread, and the "Top Bows & Doors" thread we have found the following facts.
Wall thickness of 16ga, 15ga,14,ga, and possibly 13ga
Angle of upright bows at 83°, 84°, & 85° (within the same set even)
Rivets or punch tabs at 2-5/8, 2-3/4, 2-7/8 from the end of the tube.
Center bows with and without a seam
Center bows with tapered ends and stepped down ends of various diameter
Center bow arches of 1-5/16, 1-3/8, 1-5/8
Tube spacers of various lengths
These are on original bows
I can go on and on but the point that I'm trying to make is that there is NO standard dimensions on the top bows as we've determined probably because different outside contractors did them differently or for whatever reason you can't get 100% accurate dimensions of the bows because there are no accurate bows to go by.
If you duplicated the original set that you have to the best of your ability with the available tools you have, you can honestly say (in my opinion) that your bows are accurate. If all of the sets you make are consistent to each other then I would say that they are more accurate than the originals.
3/8 support rod:
If it were me, I'd leave the length what it is now for CJ3A. That way you don't have to stock special sets for 2A, & 3A. The end customer can cut off what he does not need and may not even use the rod at all depending on his generation. I think we've determined that the majority of 2A's did not use the rod. Better to be too long than too short.
What do you think Morgan?
Door zippers:
I have some possibly enlighting information on door zippers that I will post in "Top Bows & Doors" We are headed towards the technical side here and I don't want to start hijacking the thread.
Go to TB&D for some door info page 3.
http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=8599&PN=3 - http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=8599&PN=3
jpet
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