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Spicer front axle endplay?

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Hiker View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 June 2019 at 3:48pm
I started with pulling off the drums to look at the shoes and now have the front passenger side torn down, all pieces out....it's like playing with Dominoes.  I'm sure you know the drill.   After searching around and reading as much as I can find on the site and a few videos on Youtube, I still can't find much of a description about endplay on the Spicer axle.  The most I've found is "there is a snap ring that controls/sets endplay".  This '47 has the snap ring groove on the end of the axle shafts, but did not have any snap rings installed.  Right now, there is about 3/16" endplay on both sides.  Inside I find a worn down thrust washer and wallowed out bushing behind it but as I understand it, the Spicer didn't need these....which tell me things have changed.  The bushing inside the spindle (lip type) is worn and needs to be replaced as it seems to be the only one that does anything.

* What is the correct endplay and how to set it (with washers/shims inboard to the snap ring?)

* How do you remove the spindle bushing?  (bent screwdriver....special tool that grandpa has?)

Any help very much appreciated.  I'm new to this and having fun learning.   The CJ2A page has saved my bacon many many times already. 
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oldtime View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2019 at 8:03pm
The axle shaft end float concerns are "outward end float" and "inward end float".
For D25 or D27 with Spicer type axle shafts the "outward end float" is controlled by the bronze spindle bushing.
The "inward end float" is controlled by the axle shaft snap ring as it hits up against the drive flange.

There are no further adjustments required...
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Hiker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hiker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2019 at 8:01am
Ooldtime; thanks, I think I see how it works.....since the Spicer is a fixed "universal joint" type joint and not the loose-goosey Bendix, you don't have to hold the joint together with thrust washers and shims, etc...  The Spicer, as you say just floats between the two fixed stops (bushing flange and snap ring), and there is no critical in/out float dimension that must be held.  I think I get it now.  It could float in/out 1/32" or 3/8", it doesn't make any difference.  What an improvement, I can see why the PO probably changed whatever was in there to the Spicer type.  

If the snap ring was not used, what would stop the inward float?  This was my situation (which I will now correct).  Damage? (my case shows some).

How is the spindle bushing removed?  If I have to use a hacksaw blade and make a cut through the thrust water and bushing, OK but if there's a better way, I'd like to avoid that.

Thanks again for clearing this up.  You have really helped me understand.


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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2019 at 9:37am
The way I have always removed the spindle bushing was to carefully use a cape-nose chisel and start chipping away at the flange first and then move to the interior. If you happen to nick the spindle itself, dress down any raised areas carefully with a file. The bronze used in the bushing is somewhat brittle and will break in pieces.

46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red"



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2019 at 11:13am
Yes Hiker that's it, I see you understand the basic difference between Spicer type and Bendix type.
All joints are allowed to float to a limited extent within the hemisphere.
Yet the joints center line needs to stay basically centered with in the hemisphere to control joint binding at severe steering angles.

There are subtle difference between the various shaft types.
Threaded Bendix, threaded Rzeppa, non threaded Rzeppa, Spicer shafts plus a few uncommon types.

The Bendix joints are a notable loose constant velocity design that allow for 23* of steering angle.
The Rzeppa joints are also a constant velocity design without the lateral joint expansion and they allow for 29" of steering angle.
The Spicer type are of an intermittent velocity design and allow for 27-1/2* of steering angle.

The spindle bushing controls "outward end float" for Rzeppa and Spicer type shafts but not for the Bendix shafts.
The hemisphere thrust washer controls "inward end float" for the loose design of the Bendix joints.
The snap ring controls "inward end float" for the non threaded Rzeppa's and all of the Spicer shafts.
If the shaft snap ring is not in place on shafts designed for it then the inward is limited by the Hemisphere thrust washer. 
The snap ring shafts are not machined to rotate up against the hemispere thrust washer and so they will destroy that thrust washer in short service.
Besides that the ommission of the snap ring allows too much end float.

I usually drive the old bushing out with a homade punch.

The steering angle is mainly limited by  tire diameter and actual tread width
IMHO the Rzeppas are the best D25/27 axle shafts for CJ's having 6.50 x 16 or smaller tires.
If your running taller tires then the steer angle diminishes a little and the Spicer joints become very desireable.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hiker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2019 at 12:50pm
Oldtime and SE Kansas thanks for the advice, it looks like I'm in for some chisel work on that bushing.  

I'll post a picture of the hemisphere that shows the inside damage.  dIt looks like there was some rubbing going on in the axle housing as well as the bottom of the hemisphere.  Any comments on the cause? Worn bushings?   Anything to worry about?  I couldn't see any damage on the Spicer joint, but then it looks brand new so the original joint must be in the scrapyard now.  Maybe clean up the area above the bottom race?  Again, thanks for the help.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2019 at 2:26pm
From the appearance of the latest picture, it would seem that the axle that was in your setup before the Spicer style axle had caused some damage to the housing. With a new Spicer style axle shaft in the installation I wouldn't worry about an interference. The Spicer Style shaft will not interfere with the inner housing tube as long as the spindle bushing is in good condition. Make sure that the axle limit stops are adjusted correctly so that the Spicer style u-joint isn't put in a bind during an extreme turn. Oldtime gives the correct angle at no more than 27 1/2 degrees.
46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red"



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Hiker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hiker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2019 at 4:31pm
Thanks for the advice, it's good to know I'll be OK as is.   I have the bushings ordered and just finished chiseling out the first one.  An ice pick turned out to be the tool of choice after the lip came off.  A slight scratch but a little sandpaper took care of that.  That stuff really is brittle!  Easily removed.  Thanks for the help.
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