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Vintage Willys @ The Rubicon Trail 2018 - Event Date: 29 July 2018 - 02 Aug. 2018

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jpet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep. 2017 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

...I actually believe they are a good thing.
They serve as a cheap "weak link" to help save the far more expensive spring leaves....
I don't disagree with them being a cheap weak link. .. and I'm not one for beefing something up just to transfer the stress to the next weak link.  I just wish they had some sort of rubber bushing in them to allow some forgiveness.  When I was running stock replacement springs on BAM BAM, bending "C" shackles was a regular thing.  I never did break one but I've seen Wade break one and Lumpy break and bend them.  Ian also broke one the week before.  I went to plates with bushings when I changed springs.  Since I changed the entire suspension and gearing at the same time, it is hard to pinpoint the exact factor(s) that contribute but I don't break shackles anymore and I am doing far tougher trails than I used to.

smfulle is running "C" shackles.  Perhaps he should chime in.
CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
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"We do what we can, and we try what we can't"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aboyandhisdog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep. 2017 at 4:22pm
After seeing bent C-shackles on your trip, I changed mine out to the closed end style (already had them on the fronts).  I've always thought the "C" style just didn't look like the best engineering in the end if you want a shackle that doesn't bend.  

I also extended my skid plate with 1/4 inch plate steel to go back under the E-brake. 

I have the double-wall M38 style shock mount plates which protect the U-bolts so should be good to go there.  I'm surprised you don't see them for sale...seems like a missed opportunity for a supplier.

Jeff, I'm going to pick your brain at Mike's...I need to learn more about lockers and gearing and whatnot.  A lot of this is Greek to me!  Confused  I've really learned a lot by you guys sharing your experiences here.  Thank you.
Tom
1949 CJ3A

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep. 2017 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by aboyandhisdog aboyandhisdog wrote:

....I've always thought the "C" style just didn't look like the best engineering in the end if you want a shackle that doesn't bend.....
Well, yes and no.  oldtime is right.  Better to bend/break a shackle than bend/break a spring.  I know the M38 .. or A1 went to a plate on the side of the shackle to beef it up, but IMO this may not be a good idea.  Something has to give. somewhere.  Don't want to bend the frame or hanger.  I like the plates with rubber bushings because they are strong but yet they have forgiveness.

You can keep the "C" shackles, just bring some spares.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep. 2017 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

smfulle is running "C" shackles.  Perhaps he should chime in.

I'm a little reluctant to say anything, because all I would have to say is "I've never had any issues." but I wouldn't want to say that because I don't want to jinx myself so I won't say that. Smile

I'm a Utah Jazz fan, and every time the tv announcer says "this guy is 8 for 8 tonight at the free throw line." the guy misses the next one. 


Stan
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59 Chevy 1/2 ton
Grampa's Jeep Build Thread
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ricco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep. 2017 at 7:55pm
I'm gonna chime in with some thoughts of the trail/jeep combination.  Not really knowing what to expect, I spent some time watching videos and reading other's perspective.  Overall, it didn't scare me...other than a few obstacles, of which I think all but one had a bypass.  I was really considering putting a locker in the rear before leaving, but Paul convinced me the opportunity to run the trail stock had way more merit.  Shortly after entering, and most of the way to the first night's camp sight we did fine.  We had a great camping area and woke the next day well rested, ready to go!  By the end of our first full day on the trail, I was very tired. I kept thinking of the guy who, when he found out what we were doing, said with a sly grin..."you're gonna be worn out."  I didn't know at the time how accurate that statement was!  By the end of the full day, and then day three, there were times when I would leave the driving to Paul so I could walk.  I found it was easier than the continual bumping in the jeep.  The way I have described it to lots of friends, and I think this is accurate, was that it was brutal...both for me and the jeep.

  I tell you all of that to say this:  having done it with the stock set up, I don't think I would do it again.  I'm smiling just thinking about the trip...from that angle I'd love to do it again.  Things I would change...without question...lower gearing would be number one.  The ability to crawl over the rocks would eliminate a lot of the problems we encountered...even above lockers.  I am convinced our breakage would have been lessened.  The way we had to "bump" (which is an understatement) the rocks created a whole lot of structural stress.  I have replaced all four shackles, and have re-aligned both front shackle hangers, both were bent.  Neither of the front shackles broke, but the driver rear did.  Upon inspection, it was clear there were previous stress cracks that left only half the steel for strength.  I don't know if it would have broken if it were a fully intact bracket.  My U-bolt problems were largely my fault.  Had I known, I would have used the single height nuts and cut the threads all the way back to the nut.  I think that alone would have saved a lot of grief.  

So, that is my opinion.  With lower gearing such as the Terra-low, and proper under body preparation, all else being stock, this trail can be conquered with minimum assistance from others.  If you're going to do lockers, I believe, with the RT in particular, you need both front and rear.  There were several times when I couldn't grip the granite simple because of the dust.  A rear lock alone wouldn't have gotten me up the slab.

As important as anything...if you're going to run this with a stock flatty...you MUST have a capable recovery vehicle in your group.  In our case, Brian's jeep played that role admirably.  (I think it may even have taken some of the boredom out of the trail for him!  Wink   ).  
 
 
I meant to post this on the thread from '17's run, not the fun for next year.  I'll leave it here for others, maybe it will be helpful.


Edited by ricco - 06 Sep. 2017 at 8:13pm
She can dance a cajun rhythm....jump like a Willy's in four wheel drive...("Sugar Magnolia")

'48 CJ2A #204845 "Lumpy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep. 2017 at 9:08pm
I'm not an expert by any means.  1 locker?, front or rear? two lockers? low range? tires?  IDK.  One affects the other ...  I just know that I was happy with my setup and I don't plan to change anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep. 2017 at 10:41pm
that last post was not in response to anybody or any comment. I'm just saying that I can't say which item is definitively better than the other so I'll just do everything  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sonoblast77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep. 2017 at 11:49pm
Gearing and lockers are nice. BUT, heating up ravioli on the engine held on with wire ties. Custom hot plates under the hood, custom cell phone holder mounted on the front rollbar and welding with car batteries is where its at. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2017 at 1:06pm
I think you guys are ready for Hal John's trail in the Black Hills. You Tube videos will show all for you. Pack a lunch. LOL Oilly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bridog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2017 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by Oilleaker1 Oilleaker1 wrote:

I think you guys are ready for Hal John's trail in the Black Hills. You Tube videos will show all for you. Pack a lunch. LOL Oilly

I have been interested Hal John's trail for some time. I understand that trail system is hard to find and a "local" would be helpful in locating it. Let me know when you want to go John and we will go. Brian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2017 at 3:30pm
Brian, my son Bill is the expert. I myself have not been there except on you tube. He and his buddies built crawlers and wore themselves and their rigs out in there. They don't go anymore. If you decide you want to, I'll ask Bill for you for tips and location. Another fellow who I believe knows is "Wrongway" from Rapid City. He is a page member. Oilly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigdaddy13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2017 at 5:19pm
the Rubicon is on my bucket list. Definitely considering...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatfender47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2017 at 8:59pm
It's all about the driver and the drivers ability to navigate and interpret the trail conditions for his/her vehicle. Knowing the correct line to take by watching others is to be considered free lessons.
I saw way too many folks not letting the Jeep crawl over obstacles in the videos. Let the Jeep do what it does best; ignore the temptations to overwork the clutch pedal; it's these "sudden impacts" that can cause a lot of drive train damage.
An inexperienced driver in a very well equipped rig will still have problems/issues.
An experienced driver in a stock rig will go thru with very little issues.
I realize not all folks can be expected to be experts in the rocks. Not all folks have these types of trails to gain experience on in their backyard. All rocky trails can be very challenging; it's the reason to go Jeeping. There's no substitute for seat time behind the wheel.
Please understand now why a lot of rigs are modified from stock to make these types of trails more enjoyable and easier to navigate. I'm talking lift, lockers, power steering etc etc.
You don't have to go crazy doing these mods to your Jeep.
These comments are all based on a few years of experience.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2017 at 11:08pm
Flatfender47, you are pretty much spot on. I have driven Jeeps for something like 49 years. When a friend buys one I get pressed into service to teach them how to drive it off road. I'm not sure how they can manage to hit every rock in the road. I've rode along with a few people that have to push in the clutch on every downhill section and ride the brakes, no, get your foot off of the clutch and let the gears do the work. You can still use the brakes to help and if you stall it, you are pointed downhill just leave the clutch alone and hit the starter while you are in gear.

uncamonkey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3A Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep. 2017 at 11:36pm
I don't know if this is the right place to ask, but...looking for lower gears (as I found lacking in my 3A coming down some of the "hills" on Hell's Revenge)... would I be better to find a T98 with a granny gear (like one on Herm's site) or to try to find a "large hole T-18 to put Terraflex gearing in? Cost vs capability?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep. 2017 at 12:36am
T98 vs Tera 3.15 Low.
Bottom line is that T98-A provides much lower gearing for similar cost.

T98-A with 5.38's yeilds 84/1 crawl ratio which is very good
T98-A plus Tera 3.15 Low and 5.38's gives you exceptional slow running at 108/1 crawl ratio



Edited by oldtime - 08 Sep. 2017 at 12:38am
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3A Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep. 2017 at 1:03am
Does the T98 require shorter or longer front and/or rear drive shafts?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep. 2017 at 2:44am
Hi Jim (flatfender47)

Speaking for myself, no doubt I can use all the experience I can get. I am on my second year of my "serious" wheeling career. ..... having said that, I have read your post a few times but I want to be clear. You are saying that if you would have been with us, you could have driven Lumpy up all those obstacles by choosing a better line and allowed the Jeep to walk up all those ledges and rocks without touching the gas, I.e. "let the jeep crawl over the obstacles"?

What is your crawl ratio?
Do you have lockers?
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