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What is Autumn Yellow?

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m38mike View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Apr. 2007 at 7:04am
Does anyone out there have a good photo or example of Autumn Yellow?  I'm going to repaint my project 2A in Normandy Blue, but I'd like to use the Autumn Yellow for wheels and accents since that was an original combination according to the color chart off the CJ2A home page.  Other than a brief description that says it's 'bright yellow', I have no clue what shade of yellow it is. 
 
How does it compare with, say John Deere yellow or safety yellow?
 
I'd especially love to hear from anyone with a Normandy Blue jeep with Autumn Yellow wheels - a photo would be wonderful.Big%20smile
 
Thanks.


Edited by m38mike - 27 Apr. 2007 at 7:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr. 2007 at 7:48am
Mike,
 
I just bought two different sets of color chips that I don't have yet.  They both have Autumn Yellow on them.   The photos of these paint chip pages show that, where Michigan Yellow is a fairly bright lemon-like color, the Autumn Yellow, as the name suggests, tends toward a light, sort of muddy orange.  It is not as dark as the orange that is called Sunset Red for which I have never seen period paint chips.  (I had 11 year original painted Sunset Red wheels, but that was in 1957 and does little good now!)  I'll be glad to email some photos of all the paint chips I have when I get them. 
Sam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr. 2007 at 8:10am
Mike, see the prior post:

     yet another paint question

It's a PPG/Ditzler chip from this 1947 chip page.  More orange than yellow, but it's impossible to know the true color from a web image:



Sean


Edited by sean - 31 Mar. 2008 at 11:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr. 2007 at 6:42pm
Thanks Sam and Sean,
I'm seeing that autumn yellow is really more orange than yellow.  I'm not sure that's the color I want with normandy blue.  But then, I'm not sure I want sunset red either. 

Sam, I'd really appreciate getting pictures of your color charts when you get them.  With the chart Sean provided, and yours, I'll have something to look at and think about in the next couple of weeks as I get closer to paint time.

Thanks again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lowenuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr. 2007 at 3:05am
i know this isn't the color you were talking about but i thought i would share a color chart i have, i have been told that ACME was the company that supplied Proxlin brand paint for Willys vehicles ( i have NO confirmation of this), however i have heard this same thing from several different sources.
 Here is an original page from the paint chip book, of the 5 original colors, again, the scan is only a variable reference, however, this original i have is remarkable to see in hand, it has been well preserved...low
 


Edited by lowenuf - 29 Apr. 2007 at 3:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr. 2007 at 3:25am
Mike,
 
I'll be glad to share what I get.  Sean is correct that Web colors - for that matter, any colors - you see on a computer monitor, are not likely to be accurate in matching any given color.  As an example, the color chart that Low posted does not do justice to Harvest tan on my monitor.  (It shows up way too gray on my monitor even though the paint chip page could be perfect.)  So, I think that what I can do when I get my two additonal paint chip pages is to compare those two and a third one I already have to photo prints that I would make of one or all.  When I get a visual match to my eye between the printed copy and the original paint chip(s), then I can provide that printed copy to you.  Otherwise, you'll be at the mercy of my scanner and your monitor and the high likelihood that their calibrations will be wildly different.  This way you'll only be at the mercy of my eye and however close to the original the color chip is! 
Sam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lowenuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr. 2007 at 4:03am
Originally posted by samcj2a samcj2a wrote:

Mike,
 
I'll be glad to share what I get.  Sean is correct that Web colors - for that matter, any colors - you see on a computer monitor, are not likely to be accurate in matching any given color.  As an example, the color chart that Low posted does not do justice to Harvest tan on my monitor.  (It shows up way too gray on my monitor even though the paint chip page could be perfect.)  So, I think that what I can do when I get my two additonal paint chip pages is to compare those two and a third one I already have to photo prints that I would make of one or all.  When I get a visual match to my eye between the printed copy and the original paint chip(s), then I can provide that printed copy to you.  Otherwise, you'll be at the mercy of my scanner and your monitor and the high likelihood that their calibrations will be wildly different.  This way you'll only be at the mercy of my eye and however close to the original the color chip is! 
 
and Sam is correct, however i will say that this past fall i had the remains of an early column shift that was Harvest Tan, and out of curiosity, i found a nice clean spot on the lower firewall area in the engine bay, and i placed this chart chip next to it, and to the naked eye, it WAS VERY difficult to see differences between the 2..mind you there were aging differences, but the chip was dead on....low
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr. 2007 at 1:14pm
Sam, I'd sure appreciate an eyeball matched print of your color chip chart.  I think that 98% is good enough for this restoration project.  I agree with the difficulties of color matching a jpg file from one computer or printer to another.  I printed the color chart above on my work printer and it was so-so.  I printed it on my photo capable 5 color printer at home and it was much better.  But without the original I still don't have any idea how close I am to truth on the color.  The lighting angle and camera also introduce bias into the image. 
 
Oh well, in the immortal words of Chief Dan George to Jose Wales, " I will endeaver to persevere"
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2007 at 6:21am
Here's a perfect example of why you cannot use web photos for color comparisons.

Same wrench, same day, same photographer, same camera, different lighting conditions:

    


Edited by sean - 31 Mar. 2008 at 11:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jus*Jack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2007 at 3:54pm
Not to add to the existing confusion, but...

In the printing industry (which IS how most of those paint chip pages came into being), printers typically work from ink-color books (usually known as "Pantone" in the industry), and the manufacturer warns against relying on the colors for much more than about 6 months, as I recall. Of course, they can sell a LOT more swatch books that way (at a ridiculous price, of course!), but the fact is that the inks DO change over even a very short period of time. I'm sure that the older swatches have changed quite a bit in the last 60 years.

In the paint industry, I was once told that the ONLY way that the paint manufacturers could repeat color mixes reliably was by a visual match...and they had learned that the most color-accurate human eyes on earth are those of Japanese women! (Don't ask!).These ladies in turn, rely on ceramic tiles of each color for their comparison "standards", since a fired glaze seems to have the longest life span for color consistency.

All of that said, I would think that anyone attempting an "A-Team" restoration would be well-served to do exactly what you folks are trying to do...find an old color swatch, and match it, whether it's "accurate" in fact, or not. Otherwise, maybe what we should all do is to find one of those "spots" of original color on our own Jeeps, cut a small piece of painted metal out, and submit it to some museum! (NOT!!!!)

For my own purposes, I've got several spots of existing Luzon Red that I'll be happy to let anyone look at...if you come visit me in south Georgia!   


Seeya!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryArf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2007 at 5:58pm

To add,

Sean did an exhaustive color match on the harvest tan. He used a number of samples (physical) and found "the perfect match" I'm sure the other colors could be done if the same due dilegence was used as Sean did. This would require the same type of physical samples he used. If someone did this for the color they need, it would bennefit the entire 2a community. Maybe Sean will post how he got there, or a link to that post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2007 at 6:02am
Sean, your example is both dramatic and excellent.  I wonder if we could take a lead from Jack's post, and get some Japanese women to bake some ceramic tiles in exactly the right colors for a traveling display that we could ship off to the next guy doing a restoration.  Wacko (LOL!!)
 
With the difficulties in getting a good match on the colors, I wonder how many of us have true 100% restorations, how many of us have 'close enough' restorations, or how many just have replications.  I would guess that most of us have working rebuilts.  I know I'd like for mine to be in the 95%+ restored range just because I found it in all original condition.  Since it will be going back to work as a ranch jeep, I don't feel the need to make it exact.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2007 at 8:48am
The exercise I went through was for my own satisfaction, since it was clear the current "substitute" colors were not even close to original Harvest Tan.

Thanks to members of this forum, I had real pieces of Harvest Tan painted sheet metal to use as a standard.  Then it was a matter of finding a currently available color that was a close match, and adjusting the color formula until it was nearly identical.  For that I relied on a good friend who had been in the body shop business for 25 years or so.

Posted a while ago, but have since shuffled way down the list:

     Preliminary comparisons

     Final results

Jack, the auto color paint chips are a different breed than pantone colors.  I forget what system they called it now, but chips are made w/real paint.  Both my body shop guy, and the old-time PPG rep, said that color chips will retain their fidelity nearly indefinitely, as long as not exposed to adverse conditions:  excess light, heat, chemicals, etc.

That appears to be borne out in my initial comparisons.  3 chips from different manufacturers are all nearly identical to each other, and to the actual samples.  The variation is within the bounds of mix tolerance.

They also both told me that original paint will still be nearly identical to what it was when first applied.  Surface oxidation & deterioration, when cut/buffed through, will show the original color accurately.

Sean


Edited by sean - 31 Mar. 2008 at 11:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryArf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2007 at 4:53pm
Sean,
your hunt for the the perfect match is very much appreciated, it is the standard for me. The other colors will call on others to do the same.
If anyone can isolate their true color from some under a bracket or in the tranny tunnel, this needs to be saved for others that want to get the color right. Sean my hat is off to you for the work you have done for harvest tan.


Edited by GaryArf - 02 May 2007 at 4:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Howard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2007 at 2:49pm
Hi Guys, This was my Autumn Yellow experience...My wheels were still in original paint, Autumn Yellow, so I used them and the Ditzer code and had our PPG dealer mix up a quart. That color was not right.  It is interesting that another owner I know did use the Ditzer codes and used it to do his wheels. I don't think his are the correct shade/color. 2nd photo...It is to brown....I bought several  more quarts of wrong color mixes trying to get the color. Some samples were used on the inside of my wheels for matching. I was not satisfied...
Top photo was the original of the inside of one of my wheels.
Below...This is the correct shade/color of yellow for Autumn Yellow. My opinion...
I finally gave up trying to have that color matched to acquire a useable formula. However, with a referall from another owner, I did use Beachwood Canvas's Autumn Yellow. It takes one quart to do 5 wheels with thinning. This paint is also mineral spirit based. It was the best match to my original yellow. For what I paid trying to get that color formula I could have bought six quarts from Beachwood. 
Howard 
 


Edited by Howard - 11 June 2007 at 2:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2007 at 5:37am
Howard:
Quote ...  so I used them and the Ditzer code and had our PPG dealer mix up a quart. That color was not right.
You have discovered what I did with Harvest Tan:
The original Ditzler/PPG color codes are no good anymore!
I didn't look at Autumn Yellow, but the original Harvest Tan code, while still listed in the PPG database, had been "offset" (PPGs terminology) to another code.
"offset" = substituted
The counter people at paint stores will not tell you this, unless you specifically ask.

I suspect that if you were to ask them, you'd find that Autumn Yellow had been offset to another, similar, color.

Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Howard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2007 at 9:19am
Sean...That is exactly what my experiences were. As I said I gave up on the yellow due to expense...frustration...and limited quantity needed for the wheels. I was also excited about Beachwood using the mineral spirit base paint. It has been my understanding that this was the base for the original paints back then too. It sure was easier to shoot than the acrylics too. I spoke with Rich @ Beachwood and he also confirmed the 'original' type paints that they were having made up for sale.
My tub color, Pasture Green , we started at the 'replacement' code and tweeked it from there. At least that is what I was told by my paint mixing guy. I have forgotten exactly what I had done but when I got close I actually shot the mixed paint on actual parts to compare the components in various light conditions against original painted parts until I felt good about what was happening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Howard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec. 2007 at 11:11am
Here are some other wheel photos from 23353. You be the judge.
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