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640528 Kit, Draw Bar

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48cj2a View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 Nov. 2006 at 6:37pm

640528 Kit, Draw Bar

 
 
Art C

47 CJ2A #134955 Project
48 CJ2A #206759
62 L6226 Station Wagon #58167 10900
45 T3-C #191 Project
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryArf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2007 at 7:24am
Art,
I was reading Fred Coldwells book "Preproduction Civilian Jeeps" and gleaned another tidbit. Fred seemed to conclude that the earlier drawbars were made of preformed angle iron with a very sharp 90 degree edge. Later drawbars were formed out of flat stock and bent leaving a rounded edge.
  I had to go check it out.....The one that came off #21 (far right) is rounded as are the other examples. I checked the one on #34692 and found it was made with the angle iron???  Anyone else have the angle iron drawbar? and if so what Ser. # Jeep did it come off?
 
 
 
CJ2A #10021 #34692 #58500



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2007 at 7:56am

Gary,

Both of mine are made of angle iron. 
Sam

1946 CJ2A   15292 ACM    6678

1947 CJ2A 122031 ACM 111989

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryArf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2007 at 8:04am
Sam,
What #'s?  It seems like this is just another one of those supply issues? I know Fred said in his book he would like more info on this and to e-mail him. Maybe we can pin it down to some time frame for him.
CJ2A #10021 #34692 #58500



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2007 at 8:08am
Gary,
 
The numbers are in my signature:
Sam
1946 CJ2A   15292 Toe/tail ACM     6678
1947 CJ2A 122031 Toe/tail ACM 111989   Stern%20Smile
Sam

1946 CJ2A   15292 ACM    6678

1947 CJ2A 122031 ACM 111989

Are Glass Bowl Fuel Pumps OE?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryArf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2007 at 8:11am
I guess that ends that as far as a timeline....
CJ2A #10021 #34692 #58500



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2007 at 8:25am
Gary,
 
I had the pleasure of meeting Bill Oakes Friday evening, and I have a picture of 10043 that shows the hitch and tongue part of the drawbar, but NOT the angle piece in question.  Perhaps the very early ones were formed and the later ones were made of angle iron.  Bill is still in the area, so I'll see if he can go take a peek if he is still near the Jeep.
 
Sam
Sam

1946 CJ2A   15292 ACM    6678

1947 CJ2A 122031 ACM 111989

Are Glass Bowl Fuel Pumps OE?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2007 at 7:30am
#16279 is angle-iron.

Considering these were standard equipment after s/n 10514, there might be a difference between std./optional manufacture, or between factory installed vs. purchased later as an add-on.

Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lowenuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2007 at 8:10am
#10749 and #195769 both have angle iron fabrication....low
45 #10033 ACM #47
45 #10163 ACM #188
57 CJ5    Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2007 at 1:02pm

13396 has an angle iron draw bar.

chris

2A #13396
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec. 2007 at 9:24pm
The early CJ-2 and CJ-2As used the angle iron for the draw bar.  This originated from the USDA in the April 1942 tests.  A picture of the USDA original draw bar can be seen toward the bottom of this page:
 
 
The difference between the draw bars is the triangular piece.  The CJ-2s and CJ-2As had a flat one.  The later ones were angled.
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Coldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec. 2007 at 8:49am
Hi Gary and All:

   The point being made in my PCJ book was that the earliest draw bars (on all CJ-2s and  many early CJ-2A jeeps) were made from stock angle iron, while the ones made from flat stock pressed into a 90 degree angle appeared later in CJ-2A production.  My remarks were intended to extend into early 1946 CJ-2A production but not across all CJ-2A production, as I did not have enough data to make any blanket statement covering 1945 to 1949.  Nevertheless, I'm still surprised the angle iron draw bar appears on 1947 and later CJ-2A jeeps.  Perhaps it was a matter of who the supplier was rather than cheaper costs to produce the round angle one as I theorized ... or maybe production costs shifted between the two with steel price fluctuations.     

   By the luck of the cut, a few early angle iron draw bars I've seen have the name of the steel mill in shallow raised lettering on the face of the angle iron.  CJ2A-17758 has "Bethlehem" on the vertical face of its angle iron draw bar, a fine Pennsylvania city that is coming into season, so that jeep is nicknamed "Beth" after the owner's oldest daughter.  How many angle iron draw bars out there have the steel mill name visible? 

   As Sean mentions, the draw bar did not become standard equipment until CJ-2A 10515, so I would not look to the first 514 CJ-2A jeeps for evidence of when the pressed draw bar first came into use, since there is a much greater chance the draw bars on those first 514 jeeps were added well after those jeeps left the factory (with a few exceptions that would be difficult to identify, but my money's on angle iron ones). 

   The real rarity is the flat draw bar plate, which is the triangular piece into which a ball hitch can be mounted.  Only the first 250 of those were flat, and were used on the first 250 jeep to have draw bars installed (at the factory or by a dealer), which is different than the first 250 production model CJ-2A jeeps.  This tidbit can also be useful to date draw bars.

   So, is the draw bar plate on Gary's pressed draw bar from CJ2A-10021 a flat one that has been bent in use, or is it an early shallow angled one whose tip has broken off?  If truly a bent flat one, it is strong evidence the round angle bar draw bar is original to #21.  But if it is a shallow angled one (with about 1" of  height difference between the mounting end and the hitch hole end), then it indicates the draw bar is not factory original to #21 but was added later.  I cannot tell from the photos which it might be ... but it is food for discussion.

   Later jeep triangular draw bar plates had s greater offset so the vertical distance between the mounting end and hitch hole end increased.  This provided a broader range of available heights when mounted on top or bottom of the draw bar with the angle either up or down.      
Happy Jeep Trails,


Fred Coldwell
Denver, CO
1944 CJ2-09 - X-33
1945 CJ2-26 - X-50

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Coldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec. 2007 at 9:17am
Holy moly, I forgot to mention another feature for dating draw bars: the two holes in the rear vertical face for attaching the two brackets for the Monroe hydraulic lift arms.  These became a standard draw bar feature at some time during 1947.  I don't have the date handy, but it was around or shortly after the time the Monroe lift became a factory option.  These holes are visible in Art C's first posting showing the draw bar on his 1948 CJ2A, serial number not given.     

They might also be on the pressed draw bar from Gary's #21, but I cannot see them clearly enough to state they are present (need a head-on photo).  If they are present, then that is conclusive evidence his pressed draw bar is (roughly) mid-1947 production or later.  ;)


Edited by Fred Coldwell - 13 Dec. 2007 at 9:40am
Happy Jeep Trails,


Fred Coldwell
Denver, CO
1944 CJ2-09 - X-33
1945 CJ2-26 - X-50

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec. 2007 at 5:05pm

I have one that has "Jones and Laughlin" on the back.  I used to drive past the old J&L mill on the southside of Pittsburgh when I was commuting to college.  Now it is pretty much torn down.  Any time I see an old piece of angle iron this size I look to see if it had J&L on the back.

I have a '46 draw bar that is a made from formed angle iron that is different than the ones discussed.  I have seen the formed ones that have a very crisp 90 degree angle.  Another one looks very similar to the stamped ones.  Here is one from a '46:

 
 
You can still get ones pretty close.  Here is some new stock:
 
 
I think it was just what the supplier could get their hand one as far an angle iron.  I doubt there was any type of specification on how the bend looked.  Although changing it from HRS to CRS might account for this...


Edited by Todd Paisley - 12 Dec. 2007 at 5:16pm
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GaryArf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec. 2007 at 9:12pm
Todd, Fred, Thanks for posting this info. It is really an important part of the mystery. I for one look upon this stuff with a droole down my chin...Your input and experiance on our little friend is priceless.  I hope that as we find our way down this road, you will watch over our posts and correct us when we get dowm the wrong path.... Your input is VERY MUCH appreciated. Thanks for looking here and helping us with our passion.
CJ2A #10021 #34692 #58500



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote samcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec. 2007 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by Fred Coldwell Fred Coldwell wrote:

Holy moly, I forgot to mention another feature for dating draw bars: the two holes in the rear vertical face for attaching the two brackets for the Monroe hydraulic lift arms.  These became a standard draw bar feature at some time during 1947.  I don't have the date handy, but it was around or shortly after the time the Monore lift became a factory option.  These holes are visible in Art C's first posting showing the draw bar on CJ2A-122031.  

They might also be on the pressed draw bar from Gary's #21, but I cannot see them clearly enough to state they are present (need a head-on photo).  If they are present, then that is conclusive evidence his pressed draw bar is (roughly) mid-1947 production or later.  ;)
 
Fred,
 
Too many numbers floating around here - Art's 2A is a '48, I believe - 122031 is my '47.  122031 does not have the two extra holes.  Perhaps  you should edit your post so as to not confuse folks down the road.  BTW - really enjoy having your books and DVD.  Clap
Sam

1946 CJ2A   15292 ACM    6678

1947 CJ2A 122031 ACM 111989

Are Glass Bowl Fuel Pumps OE?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec. 2007 at 2:17pm
FWIW:  #16279 also has a "JONES & LAUGHLIN", angle iron draw bar, w/out lift arm holes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec. 2007 at 1:50pm
  Well, I had to go out & look.  #113557 has a rounded, pressed angle hitch with no holes. The triangle plate has a 2" offset. This one I can easily believe to be original.
    #121489 has an angle-iron hitch with no holes, but it's backed-up against a fence, and the space between is filled with snow, so I can't look for a Mfgr's mark. Note this Jeep is only 543 units before Sam's '47. Incidentally, there is only a difference of 475 in the ACM#.
     #189673 has a stamped, rounded, hitch with no holes, but I happen to know that this one was used hard on the farm, and has been "restored" at one time, so the hitch may have been replaced with a better, earlier, one.
    And, if it matters, the 3B and both 5's have rounded hitches with holes.    BW
 
   Another question comes to mind---  What should the bolts be like, that fasten the triangle to the hitch? Both of the '47's and the '59 '5 had one hex-head and one square-head bolt. I can't imagine the square-head to be correct, but-------          BW
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