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641087 block survey

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sean View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 641087 block survey
    Posted: 07 Feb. 2009 at 5:30pm
Edit: 2-14-09 -

I'm gathering research data on CJ-2A 641087 block castings, hoping to pinpoint when the changes occurred.  If you've got one (specially if it's in a state of disassembly to see the details) please let me know what you've got!

There were 2 major revisions of 641087 block, I only need info on the early series (the late series didn't show up until CJ-3A).  It can easily be identified by the casting shape around the freeze plugs:
     

These are the changes made during the first series casting.  These changes did not all occur at once, so that's what I'm trying to figure out:
641087 block
casting changes
1st style
2nd style
Casting under distributor mount
Serial number pad
Date "clock"
Valve cover boss
Freeze plug casting
Coolant drain valve location:

fore/aft of oil filler


Scouring over old photos, I've discovered 4 different "configurations" of the above features.  In this table I've got them listed as "V1.0" thru "V1.3", which is the order I think the changes occured in:

641087 1st series. configurations
v1.0
v1.1
v1.2
v1.3
Drain valve forward forward forward aft
Distributor casting 2 round 2 round conjoined ovals conjoined ovals
Serial # pad oval round round round
Date "clock" yes no no no
Valve cover boss round "D" shape ??? (presume "D") "D" shape
Freeze plug casting radiused non-radiused non-radiused non-radiused

To simplify, just let me know what "revision" you have.  If you've got something that doesn't fit one of these revisions, let me know that too!

Data needed:
  • Stamped engine number
  • casting date
  • revision number from table above
Thanks!

Sean


Edited by sean - 15 Feb. 2009 at 1:06am
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Bob W View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb. 2009 at 10:54pm
J257376B, 641087-L-W7 A N1-CR-N2, cast 4 11, no clock, drain is forward of fill tube. I think the drain probably moved during CJ3A production, maybe ~1950/51. Do you want data from non CJ2A engines too?


Edited by Bob W - 07 Feb. 2009 at 10:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Night0wl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2009 at 12:29am
Sean here is what I have.  This is a 3A engine.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2009 at 12:58am
Thanks Bob, thanks NightOwl!

I'm not necessarily looking for 3A engine info, just trying to figure out when these casting features changed, and if they all coincided at the same time, or happened randomly.

If any of these changes are known to have happened after 2A production, then I can eliminate it from the list.

Trying to come up w/a timeline that can be used to tentatively date a later block of unknown engine number.

Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb. 2009 at 12:58am
Have update the data I'm looking for.  Added more photos & explanations.  See the first post.

Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkboyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2009 at 4:12pm
Sean here's what I found:
 
Under distributer is not like either of your examples but same on both looks like two u-shaped pads. I will say your 1st style looks to me like chaplets from casting, not pads.
 
Both have the round locater pad behind water pump.
 
 Edit:Both have non-clock date: Lefty 3-24   Mule 10-6
 
Valve cover: Mule "D" shaped   Sorry Lefty's isn't opened yet
 
Both have no radii freeze plug
 
Both have drain forward of oil filler tube (sure you don't have that backwards between 1st and 2nd?)
 
Anything else you want let me know.
 
Allen


Edited by westforkboyd - 19 Mar. 2009 at 4:22pm
'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty
'49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule
'39 Ford 9N
'55 Oliver Super 55 Ollybelle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2009 at 12:09pm
Great info, thanks Allen!
Quote Under distributer is not like either of your examples but same on both looks like two u-shaped pads.
Interesting.  I haven't seen one like that yet.  Can you get a photo?
 
Quote Sorry Lefty's isn't opened yet
That's OK, I'm not expecting anyone to remove the cover just to check that. Smile
 
Quote Both have drain forward of oil filler tube (sure you don't have that backwards between 1st and 2nd?)
Yep, I've seen the location change notice now, dated early '50.  So it's not applicable to CJ-2A engines, and I'll need to update the "data wanted" list.

Sean

Edited by sean - 20 Mar. 2009 at 12:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkboyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2009 at 1:04pm
Sean
 
After cleaning it up some maybe it's what you already have.
 
 
Never realized all the changes that occured with the blocks. As you get the data this will be another useful tool as is most everything you provide us with.
 
Thank you, Allen
'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty
'49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule
'39 Ford 9N
'55 Oliver Super 55 Ollybelle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2009 at 1:17pm
Allen, very interesting, I hadn't seen that particular casting before. I'll need to add that as another data point.  Both your blocks are like that?

I am beginning to see a pattern with many of these changes, but I'm not ready to speculate about it yet.  As more data comes in I may be able to draw a conclusion.

Thanks!

Sean


Edited by sean - 20 Mar. 2009 at 1:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkboyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2009 at 1:22pm
Quote Both your blocks are like that?
 
Yup....twins LOL
 
Any other photos let me know.
 
Edit: When this comes back from being machined it'll be cleaned up and I'll get shots from all sides.
 
Allen


Edited by westforkboyd - 20 Mar. 2009 at 1:26pm
'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty
'49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule
'39 Ford 9N
'55 Oliver Super 55 Ollybelle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2009 at 1:27pm
Allen:
Quote I will say your 1st style looks to me like chaplets from casting, not pads.
What is a "chaplet"?  I'm using "plain english" to describe them. Wink LOL

It looks to me that your style "chaplets" (which appear the be larger & some "double-cast") may go hand-in-hand w/the "non-radiused" freeze plug casting.  I'll have to go back and review previous photos.

You've also got 2 large "chaplets" on either side of the distributor boss, which I hadn't noticed before.

Whew, it's getting deep!

Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkboyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2009 at 1:41pm
Sean
 
Chaplets are used in the casting process to rest the cores on inside the cope and flask (mould). The cores create the interior features and control wall thickness. They (chaplets) come in many shapes and sizes for particular applications but the most common style is like a spool (two disked ends with a thin wire center). They are usually copper or copper alloy. As the iron is poured the chaplets melt replaced with the molten iron. There are always places on castings where the chaplet ends are visible but replaced with iron. During production runs it is found some chaplets melt too soon or need to be repositioned because the cores shift during pouring (not good) so engineeering devises new setups hence casting changes.
 
Allen
 
Edit: Thinking about it more....this area is where the most common cracks happen near the distributer. I'd guess WO was trying to adjust wall thickness and strength in this area hence different chaplet and core placement. Just a guess?????


Edited by westforkboyd - 20 Mar. 2009 at 2:43pm
'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty
'49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule
'39 Ford 9N
'55 Oliver Super 55 Ollybelle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkboyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2009 at 4:50pm
Sometimes its difficult to tell whats a chaplet end and what is cast in the mold. Those two large ones you mentioned are a good example, Not sure if those are chaplet remnants or not. I think they are very large chaplets for supporting the major core.
 
However as to the two below the distributer. In your first example those are definately chaplets. It might be that engineering called for them to be located along that thicker part but after pouring they found they supported the core better below it. Then as in mine later they changed the mold and allowed seats for them to sit on in the mold. If you look closely you can see the u-shaped seat and then the chaplet remnant showing on top of it. That change was made to accomodate/strengthen the chaplet position. Sometimes they will just move the chaplets around and then if they've moved enough of them over time decide that Rube goldberg miss-mash is enough and redesign the mold to accomodate all the many changes and do a major update of the mold consolodating all the changes.
 
On the one to the north west of the lower left frost plug either they ran out of the correct size chaplet or the core setter placed the wrong chaplet in the seat position creating that seemingly double stamp.  
 
Very interesting research


Edited by westforkboyd - 20 Mar. 2009 at 5:17pm
'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty
'49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule
'39 Ford 9N
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2009 at 1:13pm
Allen:

Thanks for the explanation of the casting process.  It is interesting, but I think I'll stick to "simple english words" when asking for ID characteristics. Wink

I'm finding yet more variations in the "chaplets" & "chaplet seats", details that have gone un-noticed before.  I have to believe these were left up to Wilson Foundry, and not specified by Willys.  As long as the block met Willys specs, they left it to Wilson to determine how to best get it done.  So they may not be useable as a specific ID characteristic.

Sean


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote westforkboyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2009 at 2:11pm
Sean
 
Glad I could finally help you for once. Shocked I remembler a while back Gale was lucky enough to be able to answer a question for you and now maybe I've joined that very exclusive club.Wink
 
It is useful to understand and once you get a basic picture of the casting process you will never look at a casting the same again. Things start to stick out more and gain your attention. After all those years working in a huge iron foundry the experience is worth something.LOL
 
It willl be interesting to follow as more members submit their data for your project and a timeline is established for the numerous changes you are tracking.
 
Thanks, Allen
'48 CJ-2A #184135 Lefty
'49 CJ-2A #219719 Mule
'39 Ford 9N
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2009 at 2:55pm
Sean,
I have engine #: 3J 24699
Casting date: 2-23
Revision #: v1.1
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2009 at 3:55pm
Thanks Frans!

You've got an early CJ3A engine.

Sean
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov. 2009 at 6:28pm
Hi Sean, my engine 4LR110818 has head casting number 640161. There is no boss and the valve clearance is 0.014". The date numbers are 3-6 and W6. Can you please tell me when it was made? I would be interested to know what these replacement engines came with, eg head, water pump, distributor etc?
 
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