7.5 NDT vs 6.5 SuperTraxion - comparison |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Posted: 26 Oct. 2022 at 11:23am |
I have run many different tires on my '2A over the years, most recently the 6.5 SuperTraxions for a couple years, and the 7.5 NDTs for the past few. My subjective feel has been that the NDT's perform better offroad in many situations, and thought it might be fun to do a real apples-to-apples comparison. Same Jeep, same day, same trail etc. This will be a comparison on my Jeep, my driving, and the conditions that I use my Jeep. It may not apply to others. I actually like the SuperTraxions, and plan to run them on my '3A project, (if I ever get it moving ) They remind me of the '2A that my grandfather had when I was a kid. edit: adding a summary so far, and links to the detailed tests: Creek Test Oct 26 - small creek with mossy rocks, sandy and muddy banks. NDT did better Hill Test Oct 26 - fairly steep rutted trail, some rocks, mostly clay, dry NDT did better Rock Test Oct 29 - not true rock crawling, but fairly steep, mostly big rocks, some clay NDT did better Mud Test Jan 26 - not "bogging", but fairly steep, rain soaked clay, some smaller ruts NDT did better Snow test (no link . . still waiting for snow in VA) Back to original post: This first test is only what I could accomplish today. Conditions are currently dry, so there is no chance to test in mud, which is actually where I foresee the NDT be noticeably better. I will test in wet conditions at a later date. I was not able to complete the test as thoroughly and carefully as I had hoped, because I had my granddaughter with me. I knew she liked riding the Jeep, and thought it would be a fun thing to do together. She was not too thrilled with some of the off-camber situations though. I had to tone down the test a little, and also spend time doing what she wanted. haha The photo does not show how off-camber it is . . but you can see a little discomfort in her face. The tires for the test are low-mileage, on 4.5" rims, inflated to 12psi (note: I am able to run the 7.50 NDTs without rubbing, because Wilson has axles that are wider than stock). I actually did the test by running in front-wheel drive (the twin-stick Dana 300 xfer allows this). That might seem a little odd, but had some reasons: 1) It is easier to only have to change out 2 tires, instead of all 4, and in the conditions I want to test, Wilson can usually make it through easy in 4wd. (Would be hard to expose difference). 2) Wilson has limited slip in rear. This testing involves some twisty situations, and I thought the front axle with selectable locker might be more "fair". It would next to impossible to take the exact same "line" thru an obstacle for each test, and I am not sure how consistent the limited slip would be. 3) The lug nut holes on rear wheel are messed up, and I do not want to disturb them. It is a little hard to describe the test without turning this into a novel . . . I will try to share enough detail, without getting boring. My thought was to do each test section progressively from least chance of success to most. - first attempt in low range, low gear, (69:1) open diff, idle (forward motion is due to traction of tire, almost zero momentum) - if comes to stop, give a little throttle, if still no go, back up a little, and try again with some throttle* - if that does not work, go up to low range second gear (38:1) with a little throttle - if that does not work, lock the diff, and try again - finally, if all those fail, go to 4wd * only a little throttle is applied. In no case do I want to start throwing mud, dirt, rocks, sand with high rpm tires . . . (because this it not the way I like to wheel). I try not to make ruts if possible. On the next two posts I will describe the 2 tests I did today. I plan to some day do a few more tests in wetter conditions, and on a couple different trails. (one that gets really slick when wet, and another "rock crawling" one) Spoiler alert . . I confirmed that the NDTs work better for me than the STs . . I went into this already thinking that, but tried to be REALLY honest and un-biased as I was testing. Edited by JeepFever - 12 Feb. 2023 at 11:28am |
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JeepFever
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Creek test -
A view of the course, with the different "sections" numbered 1) down a bank (can't really see steepness in the photo), then across some mossy rocks and submerged rocks 2) place a tire on rock for photo op (seen below), then continue across the submerged rocks. 3) climb out a mostly sandy bank (not pure sand, but a bunch of small rocks buried in sand) 4) a climb out on packed clay with some embedded rocks. 5) return back down creek 6) climb out the steep "stacked rock" bank A couple glamour photos, mostly to show the surroundings etc. These were taken at the end of section 1 . . prior to doing section 2 When I first envisioned this test, my thought was to do the "progression" mentioned earlier, run thru the course with each set of tires, and recording at what point the tire failed. The lower in progression it was successful, the better it was. ie if a tire running Lo-Lo open, idle could complete the section, it was better than the one that had to be locked, or needed higher momentum etc. Originally I was trying to avoid making big ruts, so it was somewhat sedate (idle or just off idle testing). Originally I was only planning to make a couple passes each Test 1 first day In this short test, the results were somewhat inconclusive: - In the non-climbing sections, 1, 2, & 5 both sets did relatively easily, although each occasionally got hung up, requiring going up the progression, or a slight line adjustment. - Neither tire could climb out 3, 4 or 6. The NDTs would seem to go a little further, and still be digging, but I stopped though to avoid ruts. I stopped the test with STs when it was clear that they were not going any further. Even backing up and hitting again, it came to dead stop. A couple photos of the ST exiting at section 3 . . to give a little idea of difficulty/trail-condition. I took the photos mostly to show the trail condition, but noticed after looking at photos that the tread was loaded up on passenger. Might be part of reason of zero forward progress. Decided to extend this test: After doing the hill test, and realizing that a couple passes were not going to cut it, I decided to come back a day later (swapping tires again) and do this test a little different, do a few more passes, and more importantly to go ahead and make some ruts. Test 2 second day . . the "progression" was shortened, by eliminating Lo-Lo 69:1, and idle for most part, and adding in another level before 4WD (Lo-2 23:1, locked, and "give it some real throttle ", nothing crazy, but as much as I might normally do in my everyday wheeling) With the STs back on, the results were no different in Secs 1, 2, & 5 In Sec 3, climbing the sandy bank, I first tried open. Even driving more aggressively than yesterday, it not extend the rut much further. When locked, I was able to get the Jeep to go maybe another 6" by multiple tries, using quite a bit more rpm, turning the steering wheel slightly back and forth, etc. After about 5-6 tries, it was clear that it was not going any further, so ended the test. Results in Sec 4 were very similar (pushed the previous rut from yesterday a little further, but clear it was not going any further). Now the NDTs . . In Sec 3, climbing the sandy bank, I first tried open a couple runs. It did push the rut a little further, but just spinning one tire -> it was not going any further. After locking, I was shocked! It pulled completely out . . first try. This was with moderate throttle, but letting it dig and pull. (reminder this is front wheel drive, not 4wd) A couple photos after coming out on top of bank: In Sec 4, climbing the "muddy" bank, I first tried open, somewhat slowly. It pushed the rut further. I decided to back out, before trying too hard, to take a photo. So this shows the condition of ground, and several inches of rut past where the STs became stuck, (going all out). Tried open for a couple runs, and got a little further. Then locked -> went further until it hit a "ledge" It was clear this was all the further it was going. Even trying to steer around the ledge did not work, it would simply slide to passenger and stop. This is look at the rut, after turning around to come back down. As mentioned when starting this topic, I went into it biased, with a gut feel that the NDTs are better offroad, but even with that preconceived feeling, I have tried REALLY hard to be fair/honest in the testing. Conclusion to me though -> the NDTs clearly did better in the creek test. Edited by JeepFever - 12 Feb. 2023 at 11:03am |
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JeepFever
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Hill test -
This is a maybe 50 yard stretch of eroded trail, packed clay, with embedded rocks, loose rocks, ruts, etc. I am not including photos, because the ones I took depict this as a almost-flat, leaf-covered trail. It is actually fairly steep, and challenging when wet, even in 4wd. For today's test, it is dry, . . . I fully expected the comparison to be a draw. Test 1 - first day My original thought was to run the STs up, following the progression, swap tires, then run the NDTs up once STs : These got stuck several times open, so had to lock, . . . in one particularly tough spot, STs would did not complete that section (on that line) even locked. (at above-idle throttle). To avoid spinning tires excessively -> went to 4wd to get over that spot, then went back to progression. NDTs : First pass -> did the entire hill at the first progression step!! lo-lo, open, idle . . I could not believe the difference from STs, so went back to bottom and did it again . . . same results. If I would have had time that day, I would have swapped back to STs to do again. That is when I decided that I needed to come back the next day, and run more passes with both sets of tires. Test 2 - next day The biggest difference in this test from yesterday -> was at the toughest spot. My thought was to attempt it 10 times, with different "lines". Starting at left of trail, then moving approx 6" to the right each time, until at the rightmost side of trail. 10 runs unlocked . . 10 runs locked, mostly at idle. (I don't have it in notes, and can't remember, but think I abandoned lo-lo and was running lo-2) STs : - Open -> stuck in 6 out of 10 lines IDLE - Locked -> stuck in 3 out of 10 lines IDLE - Locked -> made those 3 failed lines with throttle (this was more throttle than Day1) NDTs : - Open -> stuck in 1 out of 10 lines IDLE - Locked -> made all 10 lines in IDLE The above results were at the toughest spot (20 passes each), Results below are remainder of the trail, 3 passes each: STs: could not make some spots open/idle . . they needed either plenty of momentum, or locking NDTs: could idle up the entire trail, open . . every time (Just thought I would mention, in case your are thinking, "those trails can't be too steep, if he is idling up them" . . . Wilson has Dauntless V6, and can idle over just about anything in low gears. ) Conclusion: NDTs seemed clearly better to me, in the Hill test Edited by JeepFever - 29 Oct. 2022 at 11:40pm |
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jpoole
Member Joined: 15 Dec. 2020 Location: Chattanooga TN Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Looks great, thanks for doing and sharing this. These two tires are on my possible-list when my M38 gets new rubber. Mind sharing the tire size for the STs, maybe with photos of the sidewall information? |
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4186 |
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Yes this should be a fun comparison.
The 6.50 x 16” Super Traxions are barely 30” tall when new and mounted on 4-1/2” x 16” KH wheels. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Here is photo of ST
The NDT . . even though I washed it before taking photo, it is still a little hard to read. I might clean it up even better and take another photo later. I am hoping to get over to the land today to do some work, if I do -> I want to run more hill tests. The NDT clearly did better than ST a couple days ago, but I only ran the ST once. (I did run the NDT twice after I saw how much better it did, because I could not believe it. haha, but did not have time to swap back to ST and run it again) I want to do a few more passes to make sure there is a pattern. This is a tricky test, because the line taken is so important. ie. this is one of the reasons I have not posted results, I would like to get more data. Edited by JeepFever - 28 Oct. 2022 at 9:14am |
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drm101
Member Joined: 12 Dec. 2012 Location: Clarkston, MI Status: Offline Points: 1471 |
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Are they both the same ply tire? I have the 6.5x16 ST also and run around 6-7 lbs when off road. Tire pressure makes a huge difference with ST's, but I wonder if it's as significant with NDT's. Either way, your test is interesting and there's the granddaughter bonus time which trumps all.
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Dean
'47 CJ2A "Ron" '66 CJ5 "Buckie" The less the Power the More the Force |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Looking at photos the NDT is 8-ply and ST is 4 ply. I run 12psi in tires because it seems a good compromise for both on and off-road. I don't like to take the time to air up and down. haha
When I was taking the creek photos, with tire up on rock, I noticed that both tires seemed to be wrapping around the rock fairly well (at the 12psi). It is hard to see in photos though. I will try to remember to take a close up of them on a rock later. Edited by JeepFever - 28 Oct. 2022 at 9:28am |
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JeepFever
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I am having fun. I have found though, it is a little tougher than I thought. On the subject of size, I thought I would do a "effective diameter" measurement (if that is proper term). On pavement, I marked each tire at the bottom, using framing square to make sure the mark was straight down from center of wheel. Then marked the ground. Rolled one revolution, and measured difference between ground marks. (probably would have been more accurate to do more revs, but felt it was not really that critical for this test) On these tires, (not new, but fairly low miles*) : ST = 88.5" circumference = 28.1" diameter NDT = 93.5" circumference = 29.9 diameter * the ST's have maybe 1500 miles, and a trip across the Rubicon Trail :-) the NDTs have 2500 miles, and maybe a dozen wheeling trips like Rausch Creek, Southington etc. |
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oldmansimek
Member Joined: 23 Apr. 2019 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 177 |
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I had this same question for my M37. What I found is the NDT's to be about the same in the mud and rocks but the super tractions better everywhere else by a long shot. I know it's a very different vehicle but that was my experience. I swapped after a ridiculous incident in the rain, I was at a stoplight on a hill in traffic and it just started raining so it was extra slick I let off the clutch and started going backwards I then slammed it into 4wd and proceeded to go sideways/forward to the shoulder of the road, don't even get me started on snow. Never again.
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4186 |
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The 6.50 x!16” STA’s I’ve ever seen were all 6 ply rated.
I have never seen one in 4 ply. When I measure tire diameter I first prefer to mount it on the intended wheel as that may effect inflated diameter to a small degree. Secondly and in this case I measure at 25 psi. Why 25 ? Because for this particular tire at typical Jeep GVWR it requires a drop from maximum inflation of 45 down to 25 psi in order to achieve a full tread contact pattern on concrete. So I consider 25 psi to be the maximum a jeep should normally ever require with this tire. The 25 psi rule will vary slightly from one Jeep tire size to the next. For example an 6.00x 16 NDT may handle about 28 psi for full tread contact under loaded conditions. I check tire diameters with a pair of squares to get accurate measure. In this case it reads 30-1/8” diameter at 25 psi. Edited by oldtime - 28 Oct. 2022 at 11:35am |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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Joe Friday
Moderator Group Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 26 Dec. 2010 Location: Jeep Central Status: Offline Points: 3655 |
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True Tire geeks measure tire diameter with NUBIAN TAPES.
You wrap them along the centerline of the tread circumfertially, but the markings are in inches of OD to achieve that circumference. They are also called tree tapes.
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Proving my tire spec ignorance, I quoted the first thing I saw (the one to left) . . I did not notice the other rating. How does a tire have a 4 ply sidewall, a 4 ply tread, but a 6 ply rating? Maybe the sidewall is 4, the tread is 4+4, and the average is 6? |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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The NDT is equally confusing to me.
Might explain why the 7.50 seems to wrap around rocks well? It has a 4 ply sidewall?
Edited by JeepFever - 28 Oct. 2022 at 11:50pm |
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4186 |
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The difference is that tire cords are not what they used to be back when. Today’s nylon bias cords are much stronger than the cords used years ago. Ask Joe Friday. The new tires actually only have 4 cords but are as strong as 6 of the early type cords.
It’s merely a rating and not an actual cord count these days.
Make sense now ? |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Oddly, my used tires seem to be taller than Oldtime's new ones? (maybe because mine are on narrower 4.5" wheels which bulge the tread out in the center?)
Both of the tires measure approx. 30.38" using his framing square method, compared to his 30.12, (and mine were still at 12psi) They also measure 30.4" using a primitive "NUBIAN TAPE" (I used a thin tape measure to get circumference, then a calculator, dividing by 3.14159 ) Thanks Joe Friday for the tidbit! Never heard of that specialized tape.
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wheelie
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 25 Jan. 2011 Location: red lion. pa Status: Offline Points: 814 |
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I'm finding this test increasingly interesting. Thanks for doing it. I do like the look of the NDT on your jeep.
I find oldmansimek's experience quite interesting as well and perhaps a bit of a validation to my father's opinion. Nonetheless, I am quite interested to follow along here and see your results. Rain and snow testing would be valuable here as well to give a full account. I would not expect anyone to put themselves or their in jeep in jeopardy though. Snow condition vary greatly from well travelled hardpack to freshly fallen to light and fluffy to heavy and wet and on vs off road. This test could take years while you travel the country in your jeep, with the second set of tires in tow within the trailer behind your jeep, searching for all types of relevant testing conditions. Hahaha.
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JeepFever
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2753 |
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Not sure it makes total sense, but sounds like the rating is based maybe on some kind of testing?
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