|
|
|
7.5 NDT vs 6.5 SuperTraxion - comparison |
Post Reply 
|
Page <123> |
| Author | ||
JeepFever 
Member 
Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2750 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(1)
 Quote Reply
 Posted: 29 Oct. 2022 at 12:03pm |
|
I am finding the further I get into this, the more I want to test. haha
Edited by JeepFever - 30 Oct. 2022 at 12:05am |
||
 |
||
|
JeepFever
Member
Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2750 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Oct. 2022 at 12:06pm |
|
|
The Rocky Trail test . . Not exactly true rock crawling, but a little different terrain than what I have tested so far.
In a couple sections, the tires are completely on rock, no chance to dig down into dirt etc., the rocks are somewhat flat, so no good edges to grab on to. It is steeper than it looks in photo. The two toughest sections are 1) right in front of hood, and 2) near the top, before it goes around the corner to right. Probably should have taken a leaf blower to it before taking photo, and the test. :-)  STs -------------- First obstacle, Open -> front of Jeep would not climb rock. Locked -> front climbed until the rears needed to be pulled up the rock, then stuck After the obstacle, continued locked, some spin, but never stopped forward progress Second obstacle, could not get over, even after 5-6 higher rpm attempts. Never really came close to making it. NDTs ------------- First obstacle, Open -> front of Jeep would not climb rock. Locked -> front climbed until the rears needed to be pulled up the rock, then stuck (no noticeable difference from STs) After the obstacle, continued locked, very little spin (definitely less than STs) Second obstacle, At just above idle -> got stuck 1st attempt at higher rpm -> got stuck, after "almost" making it 2nd attempt at higher rpm, slightly different line -> plenty of tire spin, but made its way out Results: ----------- On this day, in this test, the NDTs went further. In the future, I hope the photo below to be a rock crawling challenge. It is too tough for me right now, but some day would like to try to move some of the medium sized rocks with tractor, and fill some tire swallowing cracks with additional rocks. There is a route up the middle that I think Wilson could possibly make, but not without body damage. I would like to keep it challenging, but not guaranteed rock rash.   Edited by JeepFever - 02 Nov. 2022 at 9:10pm |
||
|
||
|
JeepFever
Member
Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2750 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Oct. 2022 at 12:07pm |
|
|
Placeholder for the "mud" test . . This will not be mud bogging, but rather a run up a approx 300yd long trail, after a rain (whenever that comes). The trail is less rutted, and not as steep as the "hill" trail. The line taken is probably less critical.
It is slick when wet . . . a couple times, I have had to use his 56hp 4wd ag-tired tractor to pull out my son's full-size truck, with all-terrain tires.  Almost certainly this test will have to be done with all 4 tires swapped out, and in 4wd edit: I finally got a chance to do the test Jan 26 Mud Test --------- The best way to describe the test might be with a photo, this is at the bottom of trail:  This photo is also a spoiler, because it shows the STs stuck. As always -> photos do not show steepness. I measured with a digital level, and it varies between 14-17 degrees in this section. Not super steep, but difficult to climb when slick. (death to all-terrain tires). It was even hard to walk on today without slipping. (Note: a smooth track is not visible behind the front tire, because the frontend slipped to driver side, just before coming to stop)For each of these tests I wondered how to keep it fair considering the first pass might be easier or harder. ie. which tire to start with first? I was guessing the first pass was going to be the hardest, so decided to start with the NDTs NDTs ------------- There was no way any progress would be made in 2WD, or idling etc. So I started in Hi-Range, granny, (26:1) 4WD, not locked in front, then hit the bottom of hill at maybe 1500 rpm, and would go to maybe 2000 rpm at times. The tires were spinning much of the time, but not excessively, at the steepest spots the wheels were turning maybe 2 revs for each effective 1 rev of forward progress. It never came close to a complete stop. STs -------------- I could tell, even going down the hill, that these did not have as much traction, several times sliding out of the line I was trying to take. Uphill I started in same conditions as NDTs (Hi-1, 4wd, 26:1, open). . . starting in flat launch area, accelerated to approx 1500-2000 rpm, at maybe 30-40 yards up the hill Wilson came to dead stop. (I got out to take the photo above). You can see how packed the tread is on the STs. (I don't have photo of NDTs in same spot, because they did not stop here.  )I backed down to level beginning to take another run at it. Even though it appeared from the tracks that all four tires were spinning before, I decided to lock the front in addition to hitting the hill faster. That was enough difference to clear this section. Once I cleared this steep section, I unlocked the front (on the fly), and slowed down, but when the trail got a little twisty it came to stop again. I backed down to flatter section. locked the front again and accelerated to faster speed. I continued locked and faster for rest of trail, because I did not rut up the trails more than necessary. My guess is that there were 3 or 4 more similar spots that the STs would have come to stop, if open and going slower. NDTs ------------- In case the difficulty gets worse with each pass, I thought I would try the NDTs again, following the STs. (as it turned out, the 3rd pass seemed the easiest) Same setup as first pass . . 4wd, Hi-1, (26:1) open, but this time slower I am guessing maybe 1000 rpm, bottom to top. I guess all the really slick stuff got squeezed to the sides. There was very little tire spin, unless I tried to take a new line (when possible), to get into fresh mud. In those cases it would start slipping a little, but would slide back into original track and grab again. (Note: the STs were in original track most of the way out, including when it got stuck the 2nd time, ie. I never "tried" to get them stuck. )Results: ----------- On this day, in this condition, the NDTs were clearly better. (the STs got the easier 2nd pass and still was not able to do as well) A few more photos: The changing station:  Tread comparison at top of hill, after removing each tire. These are passenger rear, but all were similar. I think it shows that the NDTs seem to clean better, and have more edge to grab.  Condition of trail prior to NDTs last pass . . to give some idea what the trail looked like. Once the trail gets into woods, it gets a little more twisty (curvy and crossed-up). There are 4 spots that are similar in steepness and challenge.  These next 2 photos are not part of the test at all, but I found it interesting. I am not sure if any conclusions can be drawn from them. . .   The above photos were taken on the way out, at end of test. After the top of the "testing hill" there is a long somewhat level straight stretch. I usually I run that stretch at 25mph or so. Today that would have been fast enough to fling all the mud out of tire voids. (this section is dry) Prior to getting to road, the trail gets muddy. In this mud the STs loaded up, but the NDTs are still relatively clean. Maybe weight is difference? Again, I don't think any conclusions can be drawn, but thought it was interesting. Edited by JeepFever - 07 Feb. 2023 at 11:04pm |
||
|
||
|
m38mike
Member 
Joined: 23 Apr. 2007 Location: Colorado High Country Status: Offline Points: 3798 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Oct. 2022 at 1:13pm |
|
|
It looks like you have a good range of conditions for your tests. I'm very interested in your results, and your testing procedures. I'm very glad you decided to document your results to share with the rest of us. Thanks for that.
|
||
|
M38Mike
46 CJ2A SAMCJ2A 4?-5? CJ2A/3A/M38 Jigsaw 51 M38 Green Jeanne 52 M38 Blue Mule, 51 M100 Blue Mule Tale 52 XM38EV1 Electro-Willys, 52 M100 Juice Box |
||
|
||
|
Barry S
Member
Joined: 01 Mar. 2020 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 662 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 Oct. 2022 at 8:09pm |
|
|
Hi Ron! Thanks for taking the time to share your test results and info with the rest of us. l am loving watching your progress. That pile of rocks looks awfully inviting - makes me want to throw Grasshopper on the trailer and come try it with you!
As you know I am running the same 7.50 x 16 Firestone square shoulder NDTs as you. (With tubes) I am running 1" spacers which allows them to steer just short of hitting. I run them at 15PSI most of the time but this last season I experimented going down to 9 PSI for rock crawling. These tires have performed great for me and I am totally happy with them off road. My only concern would be on wet pavement or snow where the continuous center rib would probably act like a slick as others have mentioned. I spend most of my time offroad so it has not been a problem for me. I am watching for a used tire groover or siping tool though, and plan to cut grooves accross the center rib as Jeff and Seth have done which I think will help with that. -Barry
|
||
|
1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729 194? CJ2A 04893/194304 1946 CJ2A 46745 1946 CJ2A 36723 1945 MB 413665 1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor Bantam Trailer T3-C 25487 |
||
|
||
|
Oilleaker1
Member
Joined: 06 Sep. 2011 Location: Black Hills, SD Status: Offline Points: 4412 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Oct. 2022 at 7:21am |
|
|
Nice bunch of testing. I have all the above tires (except the 750-16) on my group of Jeeps and have a few observations to add.
Ice and snow, hard packed slippery surfaces the Super Traxion or M&S radial (215-85-R16's) universal treads are much better than NDT's or NDCC's NDCC's give a softer more rolly polly ride, grip about the same as a NDT NDT gives a firmer harder more stable ride. The big thing I notice between the two types of treads is the M&S Super Traxion is much noisier on pavement, and throws up about twice as much dust for the guy following you. If you drive year around on all types of surfaces, a M&S radial tire like I mentioned above is a good choice. Super Traxion would be next. If you rock crawl with Stan and Jpet, than the 750-16 NDT is their choice. Don't overlook the fact that a less powerful engine likes a 600-16 much better than a 750-16.
|
||
|
Green Disease, Jeeps, Old Iron!
|
||
|
||
|
Barry S
Member
Joined: 01 Mar. 2020 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 662 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Oct. 2022 at 8:34am |
|
Very True! With the little Go Devil L134 I am always the slowest flatty in the group on the hi way - especially on up hill grades. It took me a while to figure out that it is the tires that bog me down so much. -Barry
|
||
|
1947 CJ2A 93664 "Grasshopper"
1947 CJ2A 90729 194? CJ2A 04893/194304 1946 CJ2A 46745 1946 CJ2A 36723 1945 MB 413665 1971 CJ5 8305017 375392 Drive train parts donor Bantam Trailer T3-C 25487 |
||
|
||
|
wheelie
Member
Sponsor Member Joined: 25 Jan. 2011 Location: red lion. pa Status: Offline Points: 814 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 30 Oct. 2022 at 9:56pm |
|
|
Oilleaker wrote And don't overlook the fact that at least on of those rigs, maybe both, are on non-stock NDT tires. Jeff has cut and siped his tires every which way (and with great success) to help with traction. I think it's fair to take that into consideration.
|
||
|
||
|
oldmansimek
Member
Joined: 23 Apr. 2019 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 177 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Nov. 2022 at 6:32am |
|
|
I should clarify my rock crawling comparison I think it greatly depends on where you are rock crawling. I am in the northeast and most rock crawling (which is limited to NH or private property) is very slippery compared to out west/southwest where they typically have what I consider to be sandpaper rocks. Anything slippery on a hard surface you can forget about ndt's working.
|
||
|
||
|
Spinnas
Member
Joined: 24 Apr. 2018 Location: AZ Status: Offline Points: 375 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Nov. 2022 at 11:32am |
|
BOTH. You wouldn't believe how many people say "I'm gonna get NDTs cause I saw these videos on Youtube of this grandpa's jeep guy and they go up anything". True, what they don't know/can't see is that Stan and Jeff have them siped/cut. Do that to any tire and it's pretty much gonna work better.
|
||
|
||
|
smfulle
Member
Sponsor Member Joined: 16 Sep. 2010 Location: Ogden, Utah Status: Offline Points: 6141 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Nov. 2022 at 3:37pm |
|
I'm mostly staying out of this one, but since I'm named specifically I'll clarify. My tires are Firestone 7.00 x 16 "Military" non-directional tread tires. I feel like 7.50 x 16 is a little too much for my little Go Devil. Your mileage may vary on that. When I get a new set of tires I take them down to the local Les Schwab tire store and have them run through their siping machine. It makes about a 4 inch slash across the center bar every quarter inch or so. The sipes are almost invisible when the tires are new. As they wear they become more apparent. I believe that the sipes make a difference on the rocks and on the pavement, but I have not run any kind of tests. Just my anecdotal experience. Here's a test that Jeff (jpet) ran with Bam Bam comparing siped and unsiped tires on slick pavement. |
||
|
||
|
Bob W
Member
Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 08 Aug. 2005 Location: Monticello, NY Status: Offline Points: 1691 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Nov. 2022 at 7:54pm |
|
|
I am running 7.50 x 16 NDTs with a bit of siping. This type of siping can be done at home with a utility knife, just a couple cuts in each lug. My experience has been the tires work really good here in the NorthEast and out West. I do not go out in the snow because there is always road salt involved. Less than 10psi off road and no more than 15psi on the road is key to good performance.
|
||
|
||
|
JeepFever
Member
Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2750 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Nov. 2022 at 8:11pm |
|
|
We don't get a lot snow in central VA, but if we get some this year, I am hoping to continue this comparison then.
I tried some "testing" in PA a couple years ago, but totally forgot that I started this thread on the subject -> https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/ndts-on-ice_topic46510.html One thing in the thread that came up -> maybe high tire pressure is what gives NDTs a bad rep in packed snow. The tire would tend to be riding on the center "slick", and the lugs are only lightly touching the surface. The same might be true on wet roads. I run 12psi all the time, on or off road. That might not work for everyone. If I do a packed snow test, maybe part of that will be airing up to 25psi  I am not suggesting someone should plan to mount NDTs on a snow Jeep, but I am curious to see how it compares to STs in the conditions I can test in. edit: Bob W added post while I was typing the above . . interesting that he mentions pressure also.
Edited by JeepFever - 02 Nov. 2022 at 8:14pm |
||
|
||
|
oldtime
Member
Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Online Points: 4184 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Nov. 2022 at 8:29pm |
|
|
When I mounted 6.50 x16” STA’s on my 3B I determined maximum pressure for on road usage. Wetted down the tire tread and rolled it across smooth concrete to determine when full tread pattern was contacting the concrete. Results show that air pressure above 25 psi on the unloaded Jeep cannot achieve full contact patch.
So I rather consider that the maximum Jeep pressure for those tires unless very heavily loaded. Minimum pressure occurs somewhere below 10 psi when you can no longer keep the tire on the rim. I Have not tested that lower limit.
Edited by oldtime - 02 Nov. 2022 at 8:33pm |
||
|
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
||
|
||
|
JeepFever
Member
Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2750 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 Nov. 2022 at 10:31pm |
|
|
A few days ago the weather forecast was for rain, possibly up to 1". I thought maybe I could do the mud test! As it turned out, the rain only amounted to .15", so the mud test was off.
 I keep expanding this comparison
, and I want to include some older BFG KM2s in the mud test. These are 31"x10.50"x15". (also wish I could test 7.00 NDTs, but don't have those)Today, I was itching to try out the KM2s, and decided not to wait for rain for a mud test. - that little bit of rain should have dried out by now, so that maybe I could to "dry" tests - I already dug the KM2s out of shed - it is a nice 70deg day, so time for Jeeping! A comparison of size/tread:  Creek test  I am not sure I learned a lot here. The KM2 did fine in the non-climbing sections, it pulled out easily in the sandy section (but that route had already been cut by NDTs, I wish I would have thought to try a different exit  ). In the muddy exit it was stopped by the same ledge that the NDTs were stopped.  Hill Test --------- This one was a little more interesting, I fully expected the KM2s to be the best, but its results were in between the STs and the NDTS. I am not sure this was an apples-to-apples test though, because the trail might have been different due to the small rain a few days ago. In the most difficult section: STs -> open, stuck 6 out of 10 lines locked stuck 3 out of 10 KM2s -> open, stuck 3 out of 10 lines locked, stuck 0 out of 10 NDTs -> open, stuck 1 out of 10 lines locked, stuck 0 out of 10 The KM2s (subjectively) on rest of the trail seemed to slip more than NDTs, but again the conditions could have been different. If I get time, I might try the NDTs again tomorrow. The conditions might be different, but I can't imagine much, because it got really cloudy later today, so I doubt the trail could have dried out much. Final results of testing 3 designs on "Hill trail", low score wins: Open: STs 6, KM2's 3, NDTs 1 Locked: STs 3, KM2'2 0, NDTs 0 A few photos for reference:  You can see here where the tires can't get past, when stuck. (the bare dirt in front of tire)  Not really part of test, but just for the heck of it, thought I would see what happened in 2wd, rear. The rear tires could not push the front-end over the steep part. The limited-slip did it job, always spinning both tires, but it was not enough.  I thought this was kinda interesting, the dirt being extruded out the sides of lug cavities.  Rock Trail Test --------- Again, the KM's seemed better than STs, but not as good as NDTs. Again, I am surprised. Not to go into a lot of detail, but the KM2s could not make the 2nd obstacle, after numerous tries. It (subjectively) did seem to do better than STs, but did not make it out like the NDTs did. Hopefully I can test again tomorrow with NDTs edit: it is now "tomorrow" , and I was able to get over to land to try the NDTs on the Rock Trail. Could not make it up the 1st obstacle in 2WD, (same as all other tests), on the 2nd obstacle, it got suck when "open". After locking, Lo-2 gear (38:1, so comparable to stock Lo-1), at moderate RPM, it went over the obstacle fairly easily. Tire spin, but not excessive. This is a day later than KM2s, but I just can not imagine that the trail condition could have changed much. Final Results of testing 3 designs on Rock Trail: - from earlier test, STs did not come close to getting over 2nd obstacle, multiple tries - KM2s yesterday, also not successful, multiple attempts, seemed better than STs because they came close to making it a couple times - from earlier test, NDTs were successful 1 out of 2 tries  , today made it in one attempt .edit: a couple other observations: I forgot to mention earlier some differences I noticed in the KM2s (probably due to size, not tread pattern) 1) these ride a little more cushy on the trail. They seem to absorb the bumpy trail better 2) they require much more steering wheel effort, especially when locked. Edited by JeepFever - 03 Nov. 2022 at 10:55pm |
||
|
||
|
m38mike
Member
Joined: 23 Apr. 2007 Location: Colorado High Country Status: Offline Points: 3798 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Nov. 2022 at 6:42am |
|
|
I'm impressed with how well you've done with your NDT's so far. My experience with NDT's was less successful, but as I read this I realized the difference was tire pressure. I was probably near 30 psi with mine. Hard as rocks. Are you keeping all 3 tire patterns at the same pressure? What pressure are you using? Thanks again for your reporting.
|
||
|
M38Mike
46 CJ2A SAMCJ2A 4?-5? CJ2A/3A/M38 Jigsaw 51 M38 Green Jeanne 52 M38 Blue Mule, 51 M100 Blue Mule Tale 52 XM38EV1 Electro-Willys, 52 M100 Juice Box |
||
|
||
|
JeepFever
Member
Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2750 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Nov. 2022 at 7:40am |
|
|
I run the NDTs 12psi all the time. They could probably be lower for offroad, and maybe a little higher for onroad, but I prefer not to have to air up and down, so this seems to be good compromise in my use.
For the tests, all three are at 12psi
|
||
|
||
|
Spinnas
Member
Joined: 24 Apr. 2018 Location: AZ Status: Offline Points: 375 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 Nov. 2022 at 12:27pm |
|
That's the kind of testing I like Stan: it works for me, I'm gonna run it.
|
||
|
||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <123> |
| Tweet |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
wheelie wrote: