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AA Intermediate Shaft

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otto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AA Intermediate Shaft
    Posted: 31 Mar. 2014 at 4:55am
So I'm trying to get a head start on getting my stock jeep ready for summer. There is noise coming from the drivetrain that has been getting louder and louder. I assumed this was the intermediate shaft and preemptively ordered Novak's shaft kit based upon claims of higher quality. Yesterday I took the intermediate gear out and sure enough, it's messed up. The shaft is quite pitted and worn as are the bearings; the pisser is that the inside bore of the gear looks the same as the shaft. I'll try to locate a better OEM gear from R & P, but if I can't find one in better shape I may send the Novak shaft back and get the Advance Adapters shaft with the tapered roller bearings and have my gear machined to accept the bearing cups. Has anyone here done this?  Pros/cons? 
Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar. 2014 at 4:32pm
The shafts work great but finding someone who can machine the hardened gear can be the proverbial can of worms.  I believe Mcruff over on the Early CJ 5 site offers that service and Herm (the overdrive guy) would likely be able to refer you to someone for that.
 
When I put the teralow's in my 3B a decade back, I couldn't find anyone local that could do that machining.


Edited by duffer - 31 Mar. 2014 at 5:49pm
1955 3B: 441sbc,AGE 4 speed transmission, Teralow D18w/Warn OD, 4.11:1 D44's/ARB's, glass tub & fenders, aluminum hood/grill, 8274, York OBA, Premier Power Welder; 67 CJ5: 225,T86AA, D18, 4.88's, OD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar. 2014 at 5:56pm

The problem with the stock system is that the inside bore of the intermediate gear acts as a bearing race and can wear accordingly. The AA system gets away from all that. And when you think about it, considering all the stresses and demands put on the intermediate shaft and bearings, it is a marginal arrangement. The Dana 18 is a great TC and you have to hand it to the original engineers- I think it was designed in a very short time for use in the pre WW2 jeep prototypes. So they did a great job with what they had. But it's like a lot of jeep engineering: could be better.

I'll be sending my intermediate shaft to Mc Ruff sometime in the next few months when I have the TC out for a rebuild.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 6:56pm
Is there anyone else who has tried the Advance Adapters tapered roller bearing conversion for the Model 18 transfer case intermediate gear? I'd like to hear more pros or cons to this conversion.

Thanks,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sonoblast77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 7:08pm
Mine works great, way better then roller bearings. Only down side, the o rings it came with where a problem if i remember right, to big.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 7:28pm
I bought the whole kit after trying to find someone locally to machine the gear for the bearing.....nobody around here would even talk about it.

The kit worked fine and was quieter than the one it replaced.....run cooler?....Don't know but I suppose it should. It was still in the Jeep and running quiet years later when I sold it.

I give it a thumbs up.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 7:30pm
I have two D18 transfer cases with Timken tapered intermediate bearings installed.
One is 2.46 ratio and the other is 3.15 TL. And yes I had Mcruff bore a brand new TL gear to accept the cups.
I saw no huge advantage to installing the tapered bearings in my 3.15 Dana 20 transfer case.
Obviously the intermediate gear must be machined to accept the Timkin cups and that ruins the gear for any future change back to the original needle bearing installation.
The AA taper shaft requires that a large nut and washer must fit directly near the transmission and space there may be limited with modified transmissions and adapter plates.
Mine will fit both T15 transmission and also the T18 adapterplate.

If your intermediate bore is good then it’s certainly feasible to stay with standard components. 
With the tapered bearing you should expect increased bearing service and quieter operation.


Edited by oldtime - 25 Aug. 2020 at 7:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 7:40pm
I'm having a tough time visualizing where the forward and rear thrust is going with the AA kit. Since the gears are helical the intermediate gear will push to the front when going forward, and push to the rear in reverse. Normally this thrust is on the front and rear thrust washers to the inside of the case. How does the AA kit handle this end thrust?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 8:13pm
Correct no thrust washers are used.
The thrust is taken up by the gear cup (inside the gear bore) pressing onto the taper cone.
The taper cones have end float on the shaft and so the float is controlled by the tensioning nut and washer on the intermediate shaft.
Under extreme thrust the original design may prove superier.
But under light load at higher Rpm’s the taper setup is superior.


Edited by oldtime - 25 Aug. 2020 at 8:16pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 8:30pm
I see how the thrust is transferred from the bearings to the shaft, but what keeps the shaft from moving forward and rearward? Unfortunately I don't have the kit here so I'm going by the drawing in the AA instructions. Looks like the shaft can't move forward because it has a flange on the rear. So that would mean the forward thrust force of the intermediate gear is going against the rough casting surface of the rear of the case - instead of going to the machined surface on the inside of the front of the case.

Where does the rear thrust go?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 9:01pm
Rearward thrust like foreword goes against the outside of the case at the point where shaft enters the case bore.
As stated the front of AA shaft has a latch washer and castellated nut. The rear thrust goes onto the shaft then onto the castellated nut and plain washer which goes against the case. I’ll go get a pic for ya.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unclemoak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 9:03pm
I actually just did the machining and installed one of these kits a few days ago. Happy to answer any questions. 


The kit



Gear dialed in in the lathe.



Counter-bore cut.



Races installed.


Assembled in the transfercase.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 9:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote unclemoak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 10:10pm
What's the scoop on the copper tag?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug. 2020 at 11:14pm
Sterwart Warner numbers used to identify the installed speedometer drive and driven gears. This particular speedometer gear set is for jeeps with a 4.89 differential ratio.

Edited by oldtime - 25 Aug. 2020 at 11:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug. 2020 at 2:04am
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

Under extreme thrust the original design may prove superier.
But under light load at higher Rpm’s the taper setup is superior.

I would argue that point.  There is nothing in the original design to prevent spreading/breaking the case under extreme loads while in the AA set up that force is captured on both sides.  And I don't think the original thrust washers are as strong and durable as a good tapered roller bearing.

All that said, how strong are those 6 spline output shafts?  Or for that matter, the unsupported 6 spline input on the transmission mainshaft?  With my new engine in the 3B, all those things are making me start to wonder about how far one can actually go with a D18.  But I REALLY like the in-line low outputs.
1955 3B: 441sbc,AGE 4 speed transmission, Teralow D18w/Warn OD, 4.11:1 D44's/ARB's, glass tub & fenders, aluminum hood/grill, 8274, York OBA, Premier Power Welder; 67 CJ5: 225,T86AA, D18, 4.88's, OD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug. 2020 at 2:55am
Well John which is stronger probably makes little difference because either way the case itself is taking all the  thrust.
With the original system the thrust is straight inline to the  bronze thrust washers and is then further directed into the reinforced portion of the case.
With AA the thrust is pushing the bearing cup further onto the cone rollers. And that’s only partly what tapered bearings are designed to accept.
Tapered bearing are designed to accept lateral loads but mainly accept axial loading. The tapered bearings are not specifically designed for lateral side loads only. They are more designed toward axial loading like a ball bearing. The angle of the taper itself  rollers describes  the ideal loading forces.
Regardless I fully agree that intermediate thrust is likely not to be a valid concern.
I expect that if/when  D18’s do crack open it’s likely caused from intermediate shaft twisting forces upon the shaft bore.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug. 2020 at 2:19pm
I love a good AA meeting.

Hey Dave,

Have you installed the pan yet or can we see a straight on shot from the bottom to see the gaps between the bearings and the housing?

It seems to me that after preload is set, it would be a good Idea to measure the gaps between the inner races and the inner thrust washer surfaces, then make shims of equal thickness and install them... or at least on the inner side. This way the inner thrust is not all on the shaft and outside case wall.

I almost think a guy could just grind the AA bushings short so that they just support the shaft an don’t set preload, then make the proper width shims similar to the old thrust washers but make them so that they register the gear in the correct location on the front side and take up the space on the back side while also setting the correct preload. This way you can tighten up the nut so that it bottoms out on the case. Then you would have correct location, both sides of the case would share the load in either direction and the bolt would keep the case from spreading apart.
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