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And so the question remains...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lowenuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: And so the question remains...
    Posted: 10 Sep. 2007 at 11:03pm
after reading Dav45____CJ2A's post on the date of his tranny/transfercase (H 23-45), that equates to August 23, 1945, but it has a casting date of April XX, 1945. After reading Fred Coldwell's "Preproduction" book, Fred states that the engines were normally assembled within a week or two of the casting date.
 
But, this thread is about his assembly date of the whole 2A, #10231.
 
We know that Willy's debuted the Civillian model in July of 1945, so i wonder how many 2A's had been produced prior to the debut, ready for the public. 
 
Dave's numbers from his tranny/TC (if original, which i have no doubt is) leads us to believe his 2A was built in late August, or early September 1945.
 
I had discussion with Sean earlier this year about the assembly of #10749, and we reached the conclusion #10749 might have been built late August, or early September. I feel Dave's numbers would move my assembly date back to late September, or early October. I just have no way of knowing, not knowing how many might have been produced in a day at the facility.
 
The reason i am on this issue, is now that i have started my frame/suspension work, i am also trying to locate a correctly dated engine..Now, it appears that if my assembly date is Sept/Oct, then i will need a casting month of 09 or 10...of which i have passed on both dates many times thus far.
 
An engine is an engine, but i want to try and hit the nail on the head as closely as i can with the correct numbers on a 638632 MB casted block/engine..
 
ANY help greatly appreciated....And that goes for you also Sean :)   low


Edited by lowenuf - 10 Sep. 2007 at 11:22pm
45 #10012
45 #10033 ACM #47
45 #10163 ACM #188
57 CJ5    Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dav45_cj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 12:01am
Hey Low what is your TCASE tag serial numbers. Sean and I talked a few weeks ago about my tcase.  My tag has a number like 411788   I thought oh great the wrong tcase. But Sean pointed out they were using up all the old military stuff. Maybe my case was left over one.  The date code is E4-5 which Sean stated was May 4 45

The trans and the t-case still had most of its original black paint on it. There was a section what looks like battery acid or something took the paint off where the trans and tcase bolt together. And it conformed to both units in the shape the paint was gone..

I was and still am confused if my trans and t case are the right ones but this thing so far has had all the right numbers and it all looked original. Plus knowing it sat in a warehouse for 39 years up until 1997 when it changed hands to my friend. He got it in 97 and it sat in a garage working on it here and there until I got it.

This is what Sean sent me::
David:
I really don't know what to tell you.  It may be the correct number for that case.
Consider that the MB used the same transfer case, and they made 4-500,000 of those, so it may just be a left-over military case that they used in the early '45s.
I just don't know.

So a new problem arises and what is right.... My trans and tcase are done and would hate to take them apart.....


Low I have the tcase case and the trans case(tcase serial number is 1960)  from that 46 I just got if you need it....


Edited by dav45_cj2a - 11 Sep. 2007 at 1:56pm
1945 #10231 and 1946 #17458
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lowenuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 12:21am
Thx Dave!!!  it appears your numbers would be very indesputable as to originality.. :)  only my axles with the date on the rear diff is visibile (8-23-45), my powerplant/tranny/TC are not original, however, i have in the garage a column shift tranny/TC from #29352. the tranny has the updated oil passage, that did not require the vent on top of the tranny, and the TC is the later version with the 1 1/8" intermediate shaft.
 
i do however, have a tranny/TC coming tomorrow, that has the vent on the tranny, and the 3/4" intermediate shaft in the TC..the tranny date on top is M 31-45 (December 31, 1945). those are the only numbers i know right now until i get it home. it is the closest to original as i can find right now. and for what it is worth, i feel i could pass it off date wise as a correct replacement for #749, given Willys warranty period..lol  once i get the latter mentioned tranny/TC setup rebuilt, i will have the '46 unit up on the block :)
 
again, thx for your numbers dave...oh..i am still interested in the W/S frame :)  low
 
PS... Sean can validate this, but the MB transfercase has a different input gear in the PTO end, that would be the only major difference between the MB and the early civillian models.. 


Edited by lowenuf - 11 Sep. 2007 at 12:29am
45 #10012
45 #10033 ACM #47
45 #10163 ACM #188
57 CJ5    Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Norris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 2:17am
Mike,
 
    Not sure how much this will help you, but CJ2A production started on June 16, 1945. They were introduced to the public on July 18th, 1945 at Cesor Farms in New Hudson Michigan.
    I have heard of another CJ2A with an April casting date, but I can't remember who the heck owns it.
   I have no idea how many were built prior to the official public release. Fred might know that. I also have something somewhere saying that because of shortages, they stopped production in August and resumed again after Labor Day. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I read that. That would account why they had such a low number produced. Willys original goal was to build 60,000 in 1945 according to interviews in the local papers with Charles Sorenson.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lowenuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 2:38am
thx Bill...i thought i had read b4 that production started in june 45...however, Dave's '45 is #231 , and we are seeing assembly dates of hardware in August on his...was it in June 45 that there was a work slow down, or was that another year? back to the june start of production...i would think dave's would have been off of the line by mid July, still making my #749 at the least a mid-Sept.... i promise i won't try and get too trivial with this issue, but it does have me "pondering" and awful lot...lol    again, thx Bill......mike
45 #10012
45 #10033 ACM #47
45 #10163 ACM #188
57 CJ5    Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Norris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 12:12pm
Mike,
 
     I think you are right about the work slow down. Sure wish I could remember where I read that to confirm. The old memory isn't what it used to be.
    Off subject a bit, but related, I found an interesting internal document from Barney Roos stating how the housing shortage in Toledo after the war was affecting their ability to hire employees. Perspective employees were heading to Ypsilanti, MI where they could get a house and go work for Kaiser.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oakes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 12:52pm
I heard it was a strike that stopped things at the factory.
SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES, THEY ARE NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT THEY STILL BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN YOU PUSH THEM DOWN A FLIGHT OF STAIRS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dav45_cj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 1:43pm
Thanks  Oakes. After I read that I did some research on that.
Here is some stuff I found doing a Google search:

June 45:
Fewer Jeeps to be Turned Out o. cutback In production of BY Willys Overland Inc

July 45:
a layoff of 700 at the Willys-Overland Inc. for lack of parts.

July45:
A week-long strike of "em- ployes of the Spicer Manufacturing- CD., at Toledo, O., last night forced shutdown of the jeep assembly line at WILLYS-OVERLAND. The" Spicer workers, protesting the discharge of a girl employee, were to meet to- day to consider going back to work. Here is a small picture below.


Sept 45:
of a shortage of Parts due to strikes among supplying Willys- Overland ...

Oct 45:
The Willys Overland Idle for a month due to shortage of transmissions from suppliers' strike. ...

These are some copy and paste's from some different sites.

This information has not been confirmed yet so please don't slam me guys, just thought I would do some research after just getting out of bed...LOL

One thing to think about to... During the war all company's were pretty much told by the government to push out parts for the war. They didn't make that much profit during the war. Now the war is over and I can imagine companies like Borg Warner had so many other car manufactures wanting their transmission for other vehicles that they could not keep up and or if that company had a strike.. you get my drift...

Seems there was a layoff due to shortage of parts. Maybe other suppliers could not get Willys Overland the parts so they had to layoff.  So much to read on it and to find all the true info I would need to subscribe to an archive site.

Dave


Edited by dav45_cj2a - 11 Sep. 2007 at 2:08pm
1945 #10231 and 1946 #17458
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Norris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 3:25pm
Mike,
 
    I just got an e-mail from Keith Buckley. It is a newspaper article dated 7/31/45 stating that 300 CJ2As were built that month.
    Another factor you guys might not be aware of is that the government practically forced the manufacturers to buy back spare parts from them. THat's why you have the buy back blocks, military voltage regulators, cylinder heads etc. I have a copy of the letter from the Automotive War Council that was sent to the manufacturers.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 5:18pm
Guys, this could be near impossible to figure out w/any degree of certainty.

Consider this:  who did what, when, where and why? I don't think we know.  I think its fairly certain that axles were assembled by Dana/Spicer and delivered to Willys ready to go (or nearly so).  Transmissions and transfer cases were probably also assembled by Warner and Dana, not Willys.  So who's dates are on these?  Willys or the original manufacturers?  And how did Willys queue them for the assembly line?

The engine is another matter.  We know they were cast by Wilson foundries, but who did the machining?   Willys, Wilson, or yet another outside contractor?  The date stamp on the oil pan flange is now considered to be the final machining date, not assembly date.  So where and for how long did it sit before assembly?

FI (Low, this is for you), my '46 #16279, eng. # 16634 (NOT a buy back engine, perhaps a buy-back bare block though, virgin oval pad) was cast on 9-12-45, and final machined on 9-18-45, but didn't roll off the line until Feb-Mar. '46.  That's near 6 months difference!

Daves transfer case is similarly oddly numbered.  His '45 D-18 is #4xxxxx (what was it again Dave?), yet my '46 is #J 4074.  I'm thinking they began TC serial numbering all over again after the war, for CJ2A specific transfer cases (the "J" would seem significant), so Daves is probably remaining Mil. stock (or the case is anyway, even if the gearing is CJ).

And I had noticed this when rebuilding my TC:

I think it's more than coincidental that they put such marking on the gear.  It's got to be specific to CJ2A.  Anyone else notice this gear casting?

Sean


Edited by sean - 10 Jan. 2009 at 4:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dav45_cj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 5:33pm
Heya Sean,
My tcase is 411788

My gear has that same marking on it as yours.  J2A-12


I agree my case is an odd number as well. But like you said who knows what they did back them with the early ones knowing that they used up all the military parts and left overs..
I doubt we will ever know... Its sad that there is not better documentation from Willys...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 5:39pm
Dave, thanks!  I couldn't remember, and lost the PM..
Originally posted by dav45_cj2a dav45_cj2a wrote:

My tcase is 411788
Does it have the "J" prefix?  I'll bet not.

If not, then likely a mil surplus case, filled w/CJ gears!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dav45_cj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 5:45pm
Nope no J on the serial tag .....

So the same question.. is this the wrong t-case or the correct one of a surplus part in the early ones.....

Would be enough to drive us all mad LOL



Edited by dav45_cj2a - 11 Sep. 2007 at 5:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 6:09pm
Dave:
Quote Nope no J on the serial tag .....

So the same question.. is this the wrong t-case or the correct one of a surplus part in the early ones.....
Unless/until others w/early '45s can come up w/data to the contrary, I'd bet it is correct.  They were using up all the old mil parts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dav45_cj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 6:45pm
GaryArf what serial number does 10021 have stamped on the t-case?

Oakes what is the number on yours as well.

Anyone else with an early 45 please chime in on this....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lowenuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 8:00pm
number on the tag of my T/C is:  J 2352     i have tried to use a camera several times to take a pic, but the tag is scratched, only way to read the numbers is by using chalk, and you still have to stare at it, but the numbers do become visible....also, when i split the bellhousing, it is quite apparent it has been mated to the tranny since assembled, as the oil/rust traces along with clean surface areas match...notice the Olive Drab on the bellhousing...low
 
 


Edited by lowenuf - 11 Sep. 2007 at 8:03pm
45 #10012
45 #10033 ACM #47
45 #10163 ACM #188
57 CJ5    Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dav45_cj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 9:04pm
Ok I have been doing some research.
I subscribed to the news paper national archive.
I have been doing some reading and found a lot of COOL early adds and PICTURES!!!!!

Here is one about the 12 week STOP in production of the Willys plant due to Warner could not get them the transmissions.
This was a full and BIG picture and I cropped out the Paper and add:

Now the article says to resume Jan 2nd after a 12week stop due warner strike. Maybe this can help with some numbers etc.... Will have more adds posting and articles....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dav45_cj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2007 at 9:53pm
Here is another one from
The Pioua Daily Call
12-20-1945



Will keep posting more as I find stuff... stay tuned!!!!!
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