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Battery Power - Not Cranking Under Compression

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jgodfrey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Battery Power - Not Cranking Under Compression
    Posted: 08 Oct. 2021 at 11:53am
I bought a Duracell 6 volt battery with 640 CCA. The short version is that it does not have the power or endurance to crank this L134.

It is fully charged and barely cranks it all the way over more than twice.

What have others found to be good options? Optima? (It doesn't look right in there but at this point I need as much power as possible.)  And I know others have converted to 12 volt, but I didn't. So I'm stuck with the options I guess.

Thanks


Edited by jgodfrey - 16 Oct. 2021 at 3:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct. 2021 at 11:57am
That battery should have plenty of juice to turn your engine over. I would check your cable connections. Any dirty, rusty connections on any of battery cables or grounding straps will cause that problem. 
Did the starter turn things ok with a different battery?
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct. 2021 at 12:52pm
6 volt systems require clean and tight connections everywhere, especially the starting system and that includes all grounds.

Other possible problems include bad starter brushes and bushings in the starter and bellhousing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct. 2021 at 1:15pm
SE is very correct if the armature is dragging it will do this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct. 2021 at 2:32pm
Jason,

From your other posts I assume this is the starter you went to all the trouble of pulling the engine, and changing the ring gear to make it work for converting from a later (CJ3) starter back to a CJ2A starter so you could have a foot starter switch.

In another post you were having trouble getting the Jeep to start after you reinstalled the engine. From  what you described in that post it sounded like you were getting it to turn over enough to flood the engine and foul the plugs. No mention of having trouble getting it to turn over then, so I assume the battery and starter to have been working at that time. 

Is all of this correct? 






Edited by Oldpappy - 08 Oct. 2021 at 2:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct. 2021 at 3:22pm
There very likely is nothing wrong with your battery. I use the same one and it cranks as fast as a 12v system,  As mentioned, you need to look at your connections and cable size.  Here is a video of mine cranking with the 640amp Duracel battery.

1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct. 2021 at 10:28pm
I think it is the starter dragging, as has already been mentioned, but this is supposed to be a "rebuilt" starter from what I have read in his other posts, but that doesn't mean much.  

Could possibly be something else. The 6V system should have heavier cables than a 12V system, and grounding is very important.  

The engine was pulled to change the ring gear and starter, possibly something is not hooked up correctly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct. 2021 at 4:25am
I agree that battery should be fine.

I suspect that your "rebuilt" starter is the issue. Can you test to see how many amps it is drawing?

If your cables are too small they could lead to your symptoms. I use OO sized cables on all my 6 Volt rigs. I need all the amperage I can get in the cold months.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldmansimek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct. 2021 at 8:12am
The battery is not your problem and as cpt mentioned above you need good heavy cables for 6 volt (I would go with at least 1/0 gauge) and there is probably something wrong with your rebuilt starter.  Was this turning over good before?? Does the engine turn over nicely by hand?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R Hayden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct. 2021 at 9:42am
Could the starter have been rebuilt to a 12 volt configuration? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct. 2021 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by R Hayden R Hayden wrote:

Could the starter have been rebuilt to a 12 volt configuration? 



Dang! That is a very good question.

That would give these exact symptoms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct. 2021 at 4:38pm
I polished all of the grounds and have all new ground straps and 0 gauge battery cables from Walck's.  I am grounded from the battery to the frame, and the same position on the frame to the front of the block.

The timeline of all of this is getting fuzzy, but it did turn over enough to flood it.  (long story - different thread).

When I was troubleshooting the flooded engine I pulled all the plugs and cranked it.  It turns over fine without compression, but as soon as the plugs are back in it - it has not power.  It will not even make one revolution.  I have a tender on it and it shows full charge.

Have been running this engine periodically before the new body is installed.  So that is the coil wire going directly to the positive terminal on the battery.  I always put it on the charger after running it and it only takes a few minutes and it shuts off with a full charge.

I got the started from Midwest Military, but it was rebuilt by the same guy that did my 3A starter before I decided to make the switch.  John at MW told me I could not bring it back once it was installed, but I assume if there is an issue he will swap it out.  Is there a way to test a starter without tearing it apart?

Since I swapped the ring gear to get this starter to work, I can't exactly put the old one in and see how it compares.  That starter would crank really well.

Yesterday I traced and checked all battery and ground connections.  Since I don't have the voltage regulator in yet, this is like a 30 second check.  Battery to floor switch, floor switch to starter.  Then negative to frame, frame to block.

I have removed the paint on the starter bracket that gores to the block (both ends) and shined up the starter and bracket sides.  My multi-meter just took a nose dive, so I suppose I should invest in a new one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct. 2021 at 5:04pm
What’s the condition of the bushing in the bellhousing ?, did you replace that ?… is the timing correct on the engine ?….

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct. 2021 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by Lee MN Lee MN wrote:

is the timing correct on the engine ?….

Lee
 
I don't think that was ever resolved on this one..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct. 2021 at 1:10am
Without a little diagnosis it is hard to find the issue. It is good that you cleaned all the connections. That eliminates them as the cause for this issue.

I do not see any test to find out how much amperage is being drawn by this starter. You can usually rent/borrow a clamp on style ammeter for this purpose from your FLAPS. (Friendly Local Auto Parts Store).

Heck see if the FLAPS can test your starter. Some can, most will not be able to since the bushing is in the bell housing. It is worth a try. Call them.

Did you check to make sure that Midwest Military sent you a 6 Volt starter? Call them & verify that the P/N they sent you is indeed 6 Volt. Get the P/N off of the starter, not the box. Or maybe you could look at the windings on both starters. They should both have very large heavy duty wires. The new starter should have the winding be the same diameter as the old ones are. If the windings are smaller, you have a 12 Volt starter.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct. 2021 at 11:04am
I appologize for being all over the map with this one.  Troubleshooting electric issues is very frustrating.  In this case not remembering for sure when the engine last ran (pre or post starter) threw a figurative wrench in this.

After review of photos and videos, here is what I think happened (Oldpappy referenced my "pulled the engine now it won't start thread).

I was changing the ring gear to switch to a proper CJ2A starter (from the 3A starter that was in it) because I wanted to get rid of the level-actuated starter.

In prepping for this I tried to start it one more time and it would not start.  I now believe I had already put the rag in the intake.  (Previously I thought it did start, but looking at the pics that was the week before).  So I took the engine out, switch the ring gear, reinstalled the engine, and tried to fire it.  It still wouldn't start because the shop towel was still in the intake tube.  But even after the shop towel was removed from the intake the starter never seemed to have enough power to crank it properly - certainly not the way the 3A starter did.

This has gotten worse and worse over the last two attempts to the point where it would barely turn it once on a fully charged battery.

So yesterday I chased every single lead and ground.  Even though it is all brand new I went back, disassembled them, shined them again, and retightened everything.  Same result.

So, it has to be the starter.  Midwest Military is top notch and was willing to just swap it out.  But he did not have one in stock.  So he is rushing it through a warranty repair with the shop that rebuilds them for him.

My body will be done next week, and the snow flies here in Minnesota around this time each year.  I am pushing a deadline, so hopefully this goes quickly.

I will let everyone know how this goes once I get the repaired starter in place.

Thanks to everyone for the brainpower and support.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct. 2021 at 11:13am
You've been through a lot - I sure hope this does the trick. If the opportunity arises, you might want to pick up another starter for your spare parts stash.  Not only does it make troubleshooting a lot easier, but you have the peace of mind of having a ready spare to swap out in 10 minutes in a crunch.  I think I have 2 spares in my stash. 
1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct. 2021 at 12:22pm
Don't forget the starter bushing in the flywheel housing. since the body isn't on the frame, now would be the time to change it out if it is worn.
46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (purchased April 1969)

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