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Battery Power - Not Cranking Under Compression

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ndnchf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct. 2021 at 4:22pm
Ok, wasnt sure if you tried it with the nrw starter.
1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct. 2021 at 10:04pm
Ok this may not have anything to do with your problem but 134 ring gears come 97, 124, & 129 tooth varieties.
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Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct. 2021 at 11:11pm
I just went back to the pictures. I pulled a 124 tooth ring gear and installed a 97 tooth.

I'm regretting the decision to switch to the version of a starter. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48willys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct. 2021 at 11:15pm
I may have missed something, but have you tried cranking it with the plugs in and the ignition off?
That quick test would rule out bad timing or a switched plug wire.
1946 cj2a #28680
1948 chevy 3800 thriftmaster
1946-50's cj2a-3a farm jeep
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 12:17am
Yep. I have pulled the plugs and cranked it many times. With them pulled it cranks at what seems like a normal rpm for starting. 

Here's 3 videos. The first is the very first try after installing the second rebuilt starter. The second is after pausing for a few seconds after the end of the first video. The third is after pulling the plugs.

https://youtu.be/1q2-N5-dWus

(not sure why this isn't showing up as a link. Just copy/paste it into the browser address)

In all, the battery was cranking, or attempting to crank for a total of 30 seconds, and still read 100% on my charger, and metered at 6.5V at the battery post. But the voltage to the starter went from 5.7 to 4.2 between the first and second videos. 

But back to 5.5V with the plugs out. I'm totally stumped.

And just for clarity, I'm not even to the point of troubleshooting fuel, spark, etc. I'm just trying to get it to turn over enough to try to start it.

With the previous starter/ring gear combo it would crank fast and fire right up. This is the second rebuilt starter I've tried in 2 days. Brand new battery, topped off and showing as 100% charge.


Edited by jgodfrey - 17 Oct. 2021 at 12:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48willys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 9:32am
Was the ignition on or off in the first and second video?

So here is my line of thinking, if the ignition was on. The 3A starter is a little stronger, larger ring gear smaller bendex gear.
Your timing could be set a little more advanced than it should be, that wasn’t a problem with the old starter, but the new starter may not have the mechanical advantage of the 3A starter to get the pistons past top dead center under fire.
This is just my thoughts though, I don’t know for sure if one starting setup is stronger than the other.
It’s just that mine does the same thing as yours if I get the ignition advanced to much.

Edited by 48willys - 17 Oct. 2021 at 9:42am
1946 cj2a #28680
1948 chevy 3800 thriftmaster
1946-50's cj2a-3a farm jeep
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 10:35am
Don’t know anything much about your Jeep but I’ll take a wild guess here. I think the battery might be junk. 
I once bought a brand new yet very  “cheap” battery.
It started my Jeep maybe twice and then I had to go buy a new. one.
Paid like half price for it and got nothing for my money.
Lesson learned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 10:55am
I don't have the voltage regulator in yet, so I'm attaching the coil to the battery when I'm running it. I do not believe I had fuel or the coil attached for these, because it was the first crank to see how it did.

I did retard the timing by turning the distributor a couple degrees counter clockwise. It didn't seem to make a difference.

One thought I had overnight was that it really feels like pressure builds up, somewhere, and it can no longer crank it. With 2 starters and 2 brand new batteries, and the voltage readings I'm getting at the starter, and the fact that it cranks a few times, then really struggles, it just feels like that could be it.

But where?  Another piece of evidence for that theory is the fact that it cranks fine without the plugs.

I'm going to take apart the exhaust at the manifold and see if there is a blockage. Ehat would be some methods to test if air flow is being blocked?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 11:19am
I seriously doubt the exhaust is blocked, you had it running before so I cannot imagine what could have possibly blocked the exhaust unless you stuffed something in there when you pulled the engine.

If you want to take something apart I suggest pulling the valve cover, and turning it over with a wrench and the plugs out, to make sure your valves are opening. 
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 12:24pm
Have you tried using the hand crank? It may not start easily, but if you can manually crank it over by hand for say 10 revolutions withiut hitting a hard spot, that could eliminate a blockage.
1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rus Curtis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 1:17pm
The videos are telling to me.  I admit, I may be over simplifying it and missing something else others are seeing.

If the engine turns over with the plugs removed, that should eliminate: wiring, starter, bendix and ring gear matching.  All that stuff works and from the video, fairly well from what I see.

Both Lee and Muley asked about the timing.  I asked in your other post about firing order, but in that other post, the main focus was on text in service manuals for troubleshooting.  

You never directly addressed either (that I could find-maybe I missed it).  So, have you checked the firing order?  Have you checked the timing (static check).  At this point, how do you know the timing gears are clocked.  With the plugs removed, there's no compression and it wouldn't matter if the valves are out of sync with the pistons since no pressure would build.  I think pulling the side valve cover to observe may confirm before you need to pull the front cover to eyeball the gears.

It may be worth confirming and then one more possibility could be ruled out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 1:35pm
Question: is this a brand new rebuild with tight bearings and new main seal? 

Just wondering about oil pressure and being broken in or not. 

Not the best idea, but a 12 volt battery to turn it over would boost it---------also burn up the starter if turned too long. 

If the wiring is not in correct sequence it would backfire out the exhaust or carb. 

When all else fails, pull it behind the pickup. ShockedShocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by Rus Curtis Rus Curtis wrote:

The videos are telling to me.  I admit, I may be over simplifying it and missing something else others are seeing.

If the engine turns over with the plugs removed, that should eliminate: wiring, starter, bendix and ring gear matching.  All that stuff works and from the video, fairly well from what I see.

Both Lee and Muley asked about the timing.  I asked in your other post about firing order, but in that other post, the main focus was on text in service manuals for troubleshooting.  

You never directly addressed either (that I could find-maybe I missed it).  So, have you checked the firing order?  Have you checked the timing (static check).  At this point, how do you know the timing gears are clocked.  With the plugs removed, there's no compression and it wouldn't matter if the valves are out of sync with the pistons since no pressure would build.  I think pulling the side valve cover to observe may confirm before you need to pull the front cover to eyeball the gears.

It may be worth confirming and then one more possibility could be ruled out.

Yes. I confirmed the firing order several times. But let's make sure our terms are the same. I traced each ug back to the distributor and verified the correct firing order, 1-3-4-2.

I've had this engine running many times since the rebuild. Originally, most the ago, when I couldn't get it to fire for the first time since the rebuild, this forum helped me get the advance set. It was purringike a kitten until I changed the ring gear. I have the temp and oil pressure garages hooked up and all was well there.

I looked in the pictures, pre-ring gear change, and the distributor is in the exact same position. 

I'm going to take Oldpappy's advice and pop the valve cover and see what's happening.

Without the plugs I have a lot of air movement through those holes. When it won't crank I obviously can't tell what's happening, which is why I will also try to turn it over with a wrench. I wanted to put a hand crank nut on it and buy the lever, but I had bigger financial tasks to get completed. So I'll break out the half inch ratchet. 

I agree that this is looking like a resistance issue  not a starter issue. I have a small camera and will also attempt to scope it.

If I can't figure it out today I'm putting it on a trailer to the shop that rebuilt the engine. I'm reluctant but if feel like it needs a fresh set of eyes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 3:22pm
Parts mix up happens, did you confirm that the replacement ring gear is actually 97 teeth? Possibly the starter is able to deal with the mismatch when not under load, plugs out, but cannot when under load/ compression. 

Just a though. 

Micah  
1947 CJ2A, Body & Frame: 106327, Engine: J109205, Tub and Tailgate: 97077. Originally Luzon Red

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Michaeltru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 3:43pm
How about jumping the starter directly with a 12V battery?  Otherwise, disconnect 6V completely from the jeep, then direct jump the starter from the 6V?  Isolate everything from the battery and the starter 
Mike in AZ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rus Curtis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by jgodfrey jgodfrey wrote:

Yes. I confirmed the firing order several times. But let's make sure our terms are the same. I traced each ug back to the distributor and verified the correct firing order, 1-3-4-2....


...I'm going to take Oldpappy's advice and pop the valve cover and see what's happening....


Firing order-ok. 

With the valve cover off, watching the valves open and close - when they're supposed to - good.

 Timing static:  Using your wrench on the crank nut, turn until you get compression on #1.  Now remove the distributor cap.  Is it lined up with the number one plug?  If not, turn the distributor/rearrange the wires to get the 1-3-4-2 (doesn't matter if it's different from the figure in the manual) in correct order.  There's a flow chart here somewhere that shows all this.  Mine was out 180 and I didn't know it.

I hope I'm wrong, but having it bog and lock up when the plugs are in makes me think the valves aren't synchronized with the piston strokes or the plugs are sparking at the wrong time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 5:58pm
  Did you remove the plug wires when you R&R’d the engine to replace the ring gear? Or move the distributor? No? Then there’s no reason to believe that the distributor is out of time. Did you have the front cover off and remove the cam or crank gear? No? Then there’s no reason to believe that the camshaft can be out of time. THINK!
  It sounds like you have eliminated everything electrical, including cleaning ground points, more than once, except the ground cable itself. Is it good and clean inside the clamp on the battery post? Where is it connected to the frame or block? Do you have the grounding strap between the frame and the engine? When the starter is struggling to turn the engine, does the ground cable get hot near either end? How old is the ground cable? You have bypassed the entire “hot” side of the system with a jumper cable, how about the ground side? Connect a jumper to the battery - post and one of the starter mounting bolts, see if that makes a difference. 
  You did something during the R&R process that caused this. The distributor or the camshaft did not magically become out of time. Don’t go dickin’ with the distributor or camshaft and cause more problems. You might just as well check to make sure the tailgate chains are hooked the right way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jgodfrey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2021 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

  Did you remove the plug wires when you R&R’d the engine to replace the ring gear?  NO

Or move the distributor? NO

Then there’s no reason to believe that the distributor is out of time. Did you have the front cover off and remove the cam or crank gear?  NO

 Then there’s no reason to believe that the camshaft can be out of time. 

THINK!
  It sounds like you have eliminated everything electrical, including cleaning ground points, more than once, except the ground cable itself. Is it good and clean inside the clamp on the battery post?  YES - brand new battery and all cables

Where is it connected to the frame or block? Negative terminal is forward and the cable bolter to the hole on the bumper side of the battery tray with star washers on shiny metal.

Do you have the grounding strap between the frame and the engine?  YES a brand new braided strap from shiny metal on the frame just below the battery tray to the hole designated in the manual to the left of the timing chain cover.

When the starter is struggling to turn the engine, does the ground cable get hot near either end? NO

How old is the ground cable? Brand new zero gauge with new crimped copper eyelets from Walck's.

You have bypassed the entire “hot” side of the system with a jumper cable, how about the ground side? Connect a jumper to the battery - post and one of the starter mounting bolts, see if that makes a difference.  YES. I did this a couple different times with no change - still won't crank.

You did something during the R&R process that caused this. The distributor or the camshaft did not magically become out of time. Don’t go dickin’ with the distributor or camshaft and cause more problems. You might just as well check to make sure the tailgate chains are hooked the right way. 

I 100% agree. The distributor is in the same position as before I pulled the engine.

As far as what I did - I put a shop towel in the cross tube, drained and removed the radiator, removed the bell housing bolts and the old starter, disconnected the exhaust, removed the engine mount bolts, and hoisted this straight up and back. It stayed on the hoist in the exact position as I removed the flywheel (marking its position first to ensure it went back on in the exact same spot), changed the ring gear, and dropped it back in.

I then reconnected everything and cranked it without fuel to test it. It cranked fine.

When I got fuel to it, it wouldn't start. After looking everything over I realized I left the shop towel in the cross tube. This, combined with a couple attempts to start it caused it to "super flood."

I ended up pulling the plugs (they were soot covered and wet), and sectioned out 1/3 cup of fuel from the intake manifold, and cranked the engine without plugs to dry it out. I left it like this for a week.

When I saw everything was dry I tried again. It cranked a few times then bogged down.  That's when I started down the path of the starter. But that's not it. I've tried two newly rebuilt starters and they draw 5.7V until it bogs, then the draw drops to 4.2-4.7.

After chasing every wire and bypassing the starter button it was suggested by mechanic friend that it sounded like it would crank until pressure built up to the point where the starter didn't have the torque to turn it.  That's when I started chasing that theory.

Today I took the carb off and put my hand over the hole n the intake manifold as it cranked (plugs in). There was a ton of vacuum. So this was encouraging since it could not crank a couple minutes before. So I quickly pit the carb back on, hooked it up to full and tried to crank it. It was locked up again.

So, could this be in the carb?  Could I have screwed up the float? I know nothing about carbs, so...
 
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