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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 8:19pm

Single/two stage/multi stage


A consideration that should be made early on is whether you’ll be spraying a single stage paint or a base/clear. Single stage paint contains both gloss and color while base/clear the color and clear are two separate steps and products. Solid colors are generally done as a single stage as it’s faster, easier, cheaper, but if you really want to clear coat over a solid color, that’s available too. Basecoats are generally not catalyzed and go on dull, where the shine is built into the clear, catalyzed topcoat.


Metallics are almost always better done in a base/clear as it’s easier to get the metallic to set correctly and add the shine later with the clear. In the days when we used siphon guns, marbles could be placed in the cup to help keep the metalflake in suspension while painting- don’t do this with a gravity gun. Embarrassed 


If you really want to test your skills, try spraying single stage metallics! 


I’ll share a story about this: a good while ago in my youth I purchased an early Mustang. I decided to repaint it the original color and do it on the cheap with me buying a gallon of single stage metallic enamel. In 1966 Ford used some colors they referred to as “glamor paints” and this Mustang was originally a glamor color named “Emberglow” which was roughly the color of a five year old penny. The glamor colors also seemed to contain a finer metalflake than other metallic colors (maybe that was the glamor).


I went about spraying my first coat as described above and when done, I was horrified to see that the car resembled a tiger with all the stripes! It took me the rest of the morning and every drop of paint to get it straightened out, fogging the paint in different directions while trying to keep it shiny. It ended up looking good, even out in the sun, but I’ll not ever make that decision again. Metallics really call for a base/clear paint.


If a single stage metallic is put on too wet, you risk mottling where the metallic looks blotchy and not even- it may even run. The cure for this is to spray a “fog” coat over it where you pull the gun back a ways and spray in different directions and let the metallic lay into the wet paint (this is immediately following your normal coat, done panel by panel). If you put it on really wet, you may have to let it tack up a bit first. On the last coat the paint should be reduced a bit more and you’ll apply the fog coat as you go around the car until done. Also if you start spraying the clear too soon where the basecoat hasn't set up firmly, the metallic can mottle, "move" or even run because the clear is acting like a solvent on the basecoat.





Edited by otto - 03 Sep. 2022 at 10:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dasvis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug. 2022 at 10:20pm
Emberglow was a really good looking color. That was an option on the 1965 Thunderbirds,
Thunderbird Special Landau only Emberglo Metallic, paint code V 
1947 CJ2A #88659 "Rat Patrol"
1953 CJ3A #453-GB1 11266 "Black Beauty"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug. 2022 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by dasvis dasvis wrote:

Emberglow was a really good looking color. That was an option on the 1965 Thunderbirds,
Thunderbird Special Landau only Emberglo Metallic, paint code V 

I thought it was a sharp color. In the shade or on a cloudy day it was sort of "meh", but out in the sun it really popped!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug. 2022 at 11:09pm

I’ll share another story of one of my learning experiences: I had prepped a car for paint late in the afternoon and had it in the booth at the end of the day. It was all masked up and ready to go for the first thing in the morning. I was painting a car’s ¼ panel black and was going with enamel for a no-buff money maker job. The next day I had my paint all mixed up and the booth going right off the bat. I had applied the last coat and it looked like glass, so I turned the booth’s burner on and was pleased with myself. A little while later I took a peek to admire my work and was defeated to see a big “curtain” hung the length of the quarter! I had neglected to turn on the booth’s burner to warm up the car that had been sitting in a cold shop all night and when the paint was sprayed on the cold metal, it ran. Lesson learned and that never happened again! 


Something to keep in mind.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug. 2022 at 7:36pm

I mentioned tools earlier in this thread, but failed to bring up paint guns. Early in my career, I only had two guns: the Binks Model 7 and a DeVilbiss JGA-502. These were industry standards in the olde days and most painters had several of these, particularly the DeVilbiss. The Binks is set up for enamel and can put out a massive amount of paint; it was reserved for completes, while the Devilbiss was more versatile and I used it for spot jobs and metallics. I also have a POS siphon primer gun from that timeframe.






The gravity guns are a more recent acquisition and most of them are horrible, cheap copies of something- I don’t know what, but they all have a very similar look and style. Parts from these come close to interchanging but really don’t. Left to right: the two Home Depot guns I bought as a kit; one is supposed to be a HVLP but the only difference between them is the air cap. Both of them are 1.4mm.  Next is a Warwick 1.7mm primer gun; on the right is the 2.5mm internet primer gun. There is a whole world of spray guns out on the market now and I’m not familiar with many of them. Best to seek out good information on what is available and what works well from knowledgeable sources. I’ve been watching “the Gunman” on Youtube and find him to be well informed as he’s a production painter and reviews a lot of spray guns.


The latest gun is a Devilbiss FLG that has 1.3mm, 1.4mm and 1.8mm needles and nozzles. This is a big step up in spray quality and consistency. I prefer cups with a stopper lid over the screw-on style- they’re much easier to clean and deal with. You may be able to squirt paint with a cheap spray gun, but you’ll have much better results with something made by a company that actually knows how to make spray guns and not just copy them. If you do decide to purchase a cheap spray gun make sure to take it apart before using as it will likely be full of oil from the machining processes- clean everything with solvents to remove the oils as paints don’t like ‘em. 


m


Edited by otto - 03 Sep. 2022 at 10:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug. 2022 at 9:31pm
  Please correct me if I’m wrong, (I really do want to know) but arent most of the spray guns offered as “HVLP” (High Volume Low Pressure) NOT SO? Most use 28-32 psi air pressure and can be powered by a fair-sized (cfm) air compressor. Seems to me that’s the same pressure and volume we used to use with the siphon guns. Aren’t almost all of the “HVLP” guns offered really just “gravity feed” rather than “siphon feed”?
  I’m not a painter; most of what I know or think I know was gained by helping an experienced painter with one of my projects. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug. 2022 at 9:50pm
Since I haven't painted anything big since 1998, my experience probably doesn't count.
My last HVLP was a triple turbine ceramic electric compressor that ran at 3-4 PSI.
The hose to the gun was the size of a vacuum cleaner hose. 
I painted everything from Jeeps to grand pianos with no issues.

So yes, I think the definition of HVLP has changed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2022 at 12:04am
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

  Please correct me if I’m wrong, (I really do want to know) but arent most of the spray guns offered as “HVLP” (High Volume Low Pressure) NOT SO? Most use 28-32 psi air pressure and can be powered by a fair-sized (cfm) air compressor. Seems to me that’s the same pressure and volume we used to use with the siphon guns. Aren’t almost all of the “HVLP” guns offered really just “gravity feed” rather than “siphon feed”?
  I’m not a painter; most of what I know or think I know was gained by helping an experienced painter with one of my projects. 
BW 
Good questions Bruce, I'm not sure I honestly know the answers to them; I'm kind of stepping back into a lot of this paint thing. I was first introduced to HVLP by the old guy that managed the shop I worked in about 1986. His HVLP gun was a weird looking device that had a large hose on it like Joe Friday mentioned and it was said to produce a lot less overspray and put more paint on the panel. I never used it but saw it in action and wasn't impressed in how it put on paint; not sure how it was supposed to be used. This gun had a siphon cup.

So maybe the technology (or definition) of HVLP has changed over the years. With the advent of of all the multi-component paints (and expense) plus VOCs being an air quality issue, minimizing overspray and waste pushed spray technology in this direction. Putting the cup on the top of the gun does allow a painter to be more precise measuring material, something that I'm still learning. And with a gravity gun, when it runs out of paint there's less waste than the siphon version. Most all the change in the refinishing industry is driven by what happens inside a collision repair shop with insurance companies footing the bill.


Edited by otto - 03 Sep. 2022 at 10:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlaterDoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2022 at 10:50pm
Otto, I'm using Navy Dull (satin) gray and I bought 2 gallons of Gillespie Coatings Alkyd Enamel. Since I am not worried about gloss, my concern is quick drying to avoid runs, hits and errors! What would you reccomend for thining for a quick dry? BTW, I am not going for perfection as I am leaving a lot of things like very minor dents, spot welds and etc. This Jeep will look like it should sitting alongside a WW2 warship!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug. 2022 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by SlaterDoc SlaterDoc wrote:

Otto, I'm using Navy Dull (satin) gray and I bought 2 gallons of Gillespie Coatings Alkyd Enamel. Since I am not worried about gloss, my concern is quick drying to avoid runs, hits and errors! What would you reccomend for thining for a quick dry? BTW, I am not going for perfection as I am leaving a lot of things like very minor dents, spot welds and etc. This Jeep will look like it should sitting alongside a WW2 warship!

I'm not familiar with that particular paint, but a quick internet search found the data sheet for it. Alkyds  are an old paint format that pre-dates acrylics. The fact sheet called for using xylene or mineral spirits to reduce the paint.

I don't think xylene or mineral spirits are made in any particular temperature range so you'll just have to make do with them. The link to the data sheet is here if you didn't get one from Gillespie:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willyt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug. 2022 at 8:59am
Otto I am replacing a damaged hood hinge on my Jeepster Commqndo. The NAPA Paint Store did a great job of matching the paint and putting it in a rattle can. Are there any tricks to keep from damaging the paint on the bolt heads when tightening them? All I can think of is tighten them first then spray them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug. 2022 at 10:16am
Originally posted by willyt willyt wrote:

Otto I am replacing a damaged hood hinge on my Jeepster Commqndo. The NAPA Paint Store did a great job of matching the paint and putting it in a rattle can. Are there any tricks to keep from damaging the paint on the bolt heads when tightening them? All I can think of is tighten them first then spray them.

WillyT, I have never found a way to alter the laws of physics and the reality that tools will always scratch paint. 
Yes painting after everything is assembled is probably your best bet; mask off everything you don’t want overspray on. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willyt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug. 2022 at 11:20am
Thanks for the quick response. I figured that if I didn’t ask I would be told ‘you should have done it this way’. Lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep. 2022 at 11:35pm

Here’s yet another story about my first complete enamel paint job:


 I was working my first body shop job through the week and working on my own stuff on the weekends. I was completely into it and apparently couldn't get enough- I was 19. 


The “booth” in this shop was a concrete block, partitioned room in the corner of the building with a fan in the outside wall and some lights in the corners- a cave really! I was spraying my car a very bright yellow and went about spraying like I described earlier. After the first coat, things were looking good except for a light spot on the passenger door. This was before I learned that sealers were important and I had used both gray and brown primer on panels so I assumed the door had gray primer on it and needed an additional coat to cover it. I gave the door an extra pass and stood back satisfied that it was covered. On my second coat I again saw that the passenger door was lighter than the fender and ¼ panel. I told myself “lesson learned” and next time I’d use a sealer for sure. I gave the door another second pass. 


On my third and final coat the passenger door was still lighter than the adjacent panels and I sprayed more paint to cover it even though I usually go heavy on the last coat. So I gave it some more paint and it appeared to be covered. About this time it occurred to me that depending where I was standing, the door would appear “light”, and if I stood off to the side the door looked fine. It was also about this time that I realized that sunlight was reflecting into the booth through the fan that just blew straight through the wall and it was a sunny day. I stood back waiting for my paint job to end up on the floor, but it never did. Lots of paint on that car and it looked great!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep. 2022 at 6:37pm

One more story and it’s my favorite painting story to tell about the best paint that I ever sprayed on a car. It was a number of years later (I was 23 by now) and once again had another car down at the shop while I worked through the week and labored on my own stuff weekends. This car was stripped to metal and really got the best prep work I knew how to perform- it got blocked out multiple times meticulously. This was in the new shop that the company moved to after the old shop’s property was redeveloped. An all new facility with a professional, functional paint booth with heat, lights and proper air flow, even though the production painters constantly complained about the booth not working right and them experiencing dirt and fisheye issues. 


Anyway, on a weekend I rolled my car in and went to spraying like always. I had a number of complete enamel jobs under my belt at this point and everything went perfect. When done, the car glistened with a glass-like coating all over it. The next day I came down to the shop and got the car out of the booth, unmasked it and was starting to assemble small parts when the shop owner stopped in because he drove by and noticed a door partially open. He saw me working and came over to look. He walked around the car a couple of times without saying much and then asked if I painted the car. I said “yes, yesterday”. It was a valid question because he just knew me as one of the bodymen. Then he further quizzed, “ at this shop? in that booth?” while pointing in the direction of the paint shop (he owned three shops at the time). I replied “yes, I think it turned out great”. He then walked around it again and finally said “there’s like two pieces of dirt in the whole thing”. I said “yeah, it came out really clean” and thanked him for the use of the shop on my time. Then he just walked off without saying a word, shaking his head. I took that as a compliment.


Photo c. 1988





Are there any tips or tricks in this story? No, I just like telling it! Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep. 2022 at 3:44pm

Buffing/Polishing


My goal with spraying paint is to put it on shiny so I don’t have to buff it. I detest buffing and polishing paint and view it as a punishment because I F’d up and didn’t get it shiny enough while spraying. Most people are scared of getting runs in paint but I am not!  I would much rather tolerate a few small runs than end up with a job covered in “vampire paint” where you can’t see your reflection. It’s a lot less work to fix a few small runs than to sand the entire vehicle to polish or re-spray. It is possible to polish paint to get it to shine, but for me that’s unacceptable- I’d much rather just re-spray. 


Getting dull paint to shine later is a lot of back aching work and a lot of time that could be put to better use, but if you have to go through this ordeal, it’s a simple process. The paint needs to be wet sanded (with a pad!) with very fine sandpaper to smooth out the surface of the finish. You may have heard of “orange peel” and this refers to the lumpy, bumpy surface of dried paint. Wet sanding or “color sanding” takes off the mountain tops of the orange peel surface and brings them down to the same level as the low points of the surface so it’s a uniform height. Then, progressively finer abrasive compounds are used with a buffing pad and buffer to take out the sanding scratches and polish the paint. There are enough products and pads out there to do this that will make your head spin, and it could be a thread topic on its own.

 

Be aware of how much paint is sanded off vs. how much you applied, so you have enough to polish without burning through it. If you did burn through it, you’ll get that “patina” look where the paint is really thin. Some folks like that look, but it kind of negates the whole effort of repainting. At least it will be a good base for respraying.


I’m not very good at polishing paint because I hate it and don’t have the patience to commit to doing a really great job of it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep. 2022 at 4:12pm
how do you get rid of runs? precision wet sanding with fine grit?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote otto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep. 2022 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by bight bight wrote:

how do you get rid of runs? precision wet sanding with fine grit?

Yup, that's the gist of it. That's when I would get out a stir stick with some fine grit wet sandpaper and focus on sanding just the run and carefully sand it out; then polish.

I've seen a new technique for sanding out runs, and you would take some spot putty and smear it over the run, let it set up and then wet sand the whole mess. Everything gets sanded at the same time and when the spot putty goes away, the run is gone and you didn't sand through the paint. I never would have thought of this, or tried it- but in YouTube videos it seems to work!
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