Forum Home Forum Home > CJ-2A Discussion Area > Tech Questions and Answers
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Borg Warner R10 Overdrive
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Borg Warner R10 Overdrive
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
gunner View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 05 Dec. 2005
Location: NW
Status: Offline
Points: 157 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Borg Warner R10 Overdrive
    Posted: 24 Dec. 2012 at 3:09am
Today, while looking at some other jeep parts (picked up a Koenig winch and some side steps), I also looked at a T90/Dana18 combination. It had a Borg Warner R10 OD attached. It looked in good shape  and complete. Was wondering if these things (the OD) have any value or are able to be used elsewhere in other applications (hotrods, etc).
 
Also, can these ODs be shifted manually into and out of overdrive? The old 6volt electrical relays, solenoids, etc are not always available anymore so if it can be shifted into OD manyually, it may be more useful.
Back to Top
garage gnome View Drop Down
Member
Member

Sponsor Member

Joined: 12 Jan. 2011
Location: Western MA
Status: Offline
Points: 2834 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garage gnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec. 2012 at 3:17am
I think those ODs are only good for 2WD high range if I'm not mistaken. I'm not 100% sure because I only deal with Warn/Saturn style ODs.
Nate
1953 3A, 1949 3A, 1947 2A, 1918 IHC Titan 10-20, 1905 IHC Famous, other hit n misses
Back to Top
Schimms15 View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 Jan. 2011
Location: milwaukee, Wisc
Status: Offline
Points: 2953 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Schimms15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec. 2012 at 5:48am
The boys on the truck forum take them and modify them to use on there rigs in 2w high.
46 2a
51 truck project named Karen
Back to Top
gunner View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 05 Dec. 2005
Location: NW
Status: Offline
Points: 157 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec. 2012 at 6:04pm
Truck forum?
 
Anybody know if these things require the electrical connections to be used, or can they be manually shifted? It's possible the electrical connections only exist to enable the OD to shift in and out by means of the accelerator pedal (ie, floor it and the OD kicks out; let off the throttle and it kicks in, etc). There is a lever on the OD that looks like it wants to have a manual shifter hooked up to. I had an old GMC with a 3 speed with an OD looked just about like this. It also had that lever on it. I never used the OD, just wanted the tranny.
 
I'm not looking to put this in a jeep, but it may come in handy with a future non-4x4 jeep project.
Back to Top
PhillipM View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 May 2012
Location: Jackson, MS
Status: Offline
Points: 560 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhillipM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec. 2012 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by gunner gunner wrote:

Today, while looking at some other jeep parts (picked up a Koenig winch and some side steps), I also looked at a T90/Dana18 combination. It had a Borg Warner R10 OD attached. It looked in good shape  and complete. Was wondering if these things (the OD) have any value or are able to be used elsewhere in other applications (hotrods, etc).
 
Also, can these ODs be shifted manually into and out of overdrive? The old 6volt electrical relays, solenoids, etc are not always available anymore so if it can be shifted into OD manyually, it may be more useful.

Herm has the solenoids.  

You may want to read this thread on how it works.  Post 23 is good. http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/borg-warner-r10-overdrives-59428-2.html

Quote I have some knowledge of these units. There is only ONE basic unit, all are 30% overdrive. The only difference between R-10 units for each manufacturer is the 1-1.5" think adapter between the trans and OD and sometimes the output shaft splines, though all I know of are the same. 
There is only one thing I see "wrong" with your application. The planetary gears are rather fragile until fully engaged. All factory systems momentarily ground out the coil (effectively turning off the ignition) when disengaging OD. This is CRITICAL! I had one mounted behind an EFI engine and decided the electronics might not like grounding the coil, so I wired a relay into the ignition wire. The kick down switch momentarily cut the ignition (faster than you can turn it off and on, but similar in concept -- maybe two cylinder firings at the most). That is just enough to take the load off the input and keep the unit from binding inside. If it binds to much the shaft one or more of the planetary gears ride on will break and the OD unit will jam. Luckily this doesn't leave you stranded, it just jams the unit in direct drive as if the lock-out handle is pulled. 

One more thing, these units automatically go into OD once 25-30 mph is reached. The goevernor is nothing but a rotating weight that trips a set of contacts to complete the circuit and allow the solenoid to engage OD. I suspect you are using a simple switch to energize the solenoid when you want to. That's fine, there is nothing wrong with doing that and splitting gears in second and third, but 2 and 3 are so close together in a normal three speed trans that 2 + OD is about the same as third. It would be worse with a four speed -- 2 + OD would be a little between 3 and 4, which would make for some fancy shifting! The unit was intended to just be a high gear, though AMC did make a three speed trans with wide 2 to 3 spacing so it could be shifted as a five speed for a few years. Not a very fast shifter though (they called it "Twin Stick" because the lock-out was on a short shift lever beside the three speed floor shifter insted of a cable under the dash). But you HAVE to either clutch the trans coming out of OD or install some sort of ignition cut-out in the kick-down switch!! I wired one up sort of like I think ou did, just a switch for power to the solenoid. It worked fine for a while, then one day it bound up and popped a planetary shaft. This was in a little 61 Rambler Americna (2600-2700 pound car) with a 90 hp (gross hp!) flat head six!! The same unit is used behind 390 Ford big blocks. 

You could have a problem with the auto shift with a big engine. A friend of my dad's used to race a 50 Ford with a 312 T-bird engine (built!) and three speed with OD. He told me about breaking the OD on numerous occasions, usually out drinking and street racing. When OD is engaged but you aren't in OD yet, there is a chance of applying to much power as the gears are engaging. Basically he was taking off just cruising, just at the OD engaging speed when someone pulled up and gunned it. If he forgot about OD not being locked out he'd let off the gas slightly then floor it. Well, when he let off the gas (either on purpose or by mistake) and suddnely floored it the car took off, usually with a big BOOM under the floor from the planetary shaft busting!! Yep, sounds like a shot run going off under the floor when that happens, scared the crap out of me the only time I had it happen! I was crusing in OD when the shaft in mine let loose, it had weakened from all the driving I'd been doing I guess.
Back to Top
Bruce W View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 July 2005
Location: Northeast Colorado
Status: Offline
Points: 9652 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec. 2012 at 7:00pm
I've been repairing, modifying, and using these overdrives since the first one I encountered in a '50 Mercury in 1966. I dont remember any reference to a model "R-10", but every Borg-Warner Overdrive I've ever seen looks and works the same. While I suppose it would be possible to replace the solenoid with some sort of lever/plunger arrangement to shift it, I still use the relay and solenoid, but without the governor and kick-down switch. I use a toggle switch mounted on the shift lever to control the relay. This gives more control over the system. It's still necessary to let up on the gas to accomplish the shift, but that would still hold true if you could eliminate all the electrics with a lever. The "shift lever" on the overdrive does not shift it, it allows the overdrive to operate, or locks it out, making it like its not there. If this overdrive is used in an application other than intended, such as behind the t/case on our jeeps, the "lock-out lever" would have to be used to lock out the overdrive any time reverse is used, or the over-running clutch will free-wheel and the jeep will not move. If you have any questions about these, please ask, I'll be glad to help as best I can. BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
Back to Top
PhillipM View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 May 2012
Location: Jackson, MS
Status: Offline
Points: 560 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhillipM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec. 2012 at 7:19pm
I had a professor with an R-11 in his 1966 F-250.  There was a combination of operating the actuator and the solenoid so that it would lock up moved backwards (regardless if the transmission is in reverse).  He used that feature as a hill holder.
Back to Top
gunner View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 05 Dec. 2005
Location: NW
Status: Offline
Points: 157 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec. 2012 at 10:28pm
Great info, thanks guys.
 
I think I'll try to pick up the T90/D18/OD combination. If I do, I'll get back to you for some more insight on the OD; I'll have pics by then.
 
As I mentioned, I wouldn't put this in a jeep,; it's just too out of place in there, especially with the Warn being a superior OD in so many ways. No, it would go in a 2wd of some sort.
 
The OD looks stout from the outside and seemed to turn fine by hand.
 
I can see it now: acquire an overdrive and justify a project around it  Wacko 


Edited by gunner - 24 Dec. 2012 at 10:30pm
Back to Top
HillBillE View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 June 2009
Location: Duluth, MN
Status: Offline
Points: 442 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HillBillE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec. 2012 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by gunner gunner wrote:

I can see it now: acquire an overdrive and justify a project around it  Wacko 


Isn't that how it is supposed to work??Thumbs Up
5 Jeeps, 4 HAM radios, and not enough things that go 'BANG!' (no, not hammers!)

N1CJP

'47 CJ2A #112146

'46 CJ2A #23754

'52 CJ3A #452-GB1-10197
Back to Top
gunner View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 05 Dec. 2005
Location: NW
Status: Offline
Points: 157 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec. 2012 at 11:21pm
Makes perfect sense to me (that's the scary part).
 
Just got off the phone with the fellow who has the gearboxes and we'll work things out after the holidays. He also has other items, not sure if they're from a 2A, 3A or 3B, but it's flat fender stuff. He gave me a set of original side steps, so I think that narrows it down as I am not too sure the 3B had them. He doesn't know what the parts are off of as he is not a jeep guy and got these things through an estate.


Edited by gunner - 24 Dec. 2012 at 11:40pm
Back to Top
Bruce W View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 July 2005
Location: Northeast Colorado
Status: Offline
Points: 9652 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec. 2012 at 7:54am
Yep, the 3B had them.    BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
Back to Top
gunner View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 05 Dec. 2005
Location: NW
Status: Offline
Points: 157 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec. 2012 at 10:49pm
BW, thanks for the heads up on the steps.
 
About that Borg Warner OD, what could they hook up behind? i know they went behind a variety of car 3 speeds. What about a truck 4 speed such as the SM420 or others?
 
Just looking down the road....
Back to Top
PhillipM View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 28 May 2012
Location: Jackson, MS
Status: Offline
Points: 560 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PhillipM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec. 2012 at 11:09pm
The R10's went behind T-86 transmissions, the R11's went behind T-85 transmissions.  The T-10 4 speed was based off the T 85 and an R11 would fit with some modification.  The T-10 was a Ford muscle car transmission.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?59330-Need-Tech-Assist-on-Borg-Warner-T10-R11-OD&s=5d65cd8e3c6d78922056b90e2326abda
Back to Top
gunner View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 05 Dec. 2005
Location: NW
Status: Offline
Points: 157 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec. 2012 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by PhillipM PhillipM wrote:

The R10's went behind T-86 transmissions, the R11's went behind T-85 transmissions.  The T-10 4 speed was based off the T 85 and an R11 would fit with some modification.  The T-10 was a Ford muscle car transmission.

http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?59330-Need-Tech-Assist-on-Borg-Warner-T10-R11-OD&s=5d65cd8e3c6d78922056b90e2326abda
 
I'll read the thread; it's an R10 OD. Any idea on compatibility with the truck 4 speeds?
Back to Top
gunner View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 05 Dec. 2005
Location: NW
Status: Offline
Points: 157 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec. 2012 at 8:51pm
Bruce W- pm'ed you
Back to Top
banman View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 23 May 2015
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote banman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2015 at 4:16am
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

I've been repairing, modifying, and using these overdrives since the first one I encountered in a '50 Mercury in 1966. I dont remember any reference to a model "R-10", but every Borg-Warner Overdrive I've ever seen looks and works the same. While I suppose it would be possible to replace the solenoid with some sort of lever/plunger arrangement to shift it, I still use the relay and solenoid, but without the governor and kick-down switch. I use a toggle switch mounted on the shift lever to control the relay. This gives more control over the system. It's still necessary to let up on the gas to accomplish the shift, but that would still hold true if you could eliminate all the electrics with a lever. The "shift lever" on the overdrive does not shift it, it allows the overdrive to operate, or locks it out, making it like its not there. If this overdrive is used in an application other than intended, such as behind the t/case on our jeeps, the "lock-out lever" would have to be used to lock out the overdrive any time reverse is used, or the over-running clutch will free-wheel and the jeep will not move. If you have any questions about these, please ask, I'll be glad to help as best I can. BW

Came across this thread while researching R-10's
I recently pulled one from a Willys Wagon attached to a D-18.
I'd love to talk to you about whether this would be a good addition to my Willys Wagon.
I'm on the Willys Overland Forum if you've ever been there--this is the link to my "build" thread.
http://www.oldwillysforum.com/forum/showthread.php?5764-54-Wagon-the-resurrection-where-do-we-go-from-here
Anyway, I'm in Ft Collins so I'd be happy to meet up for a beer and discuss how to use this thing if it seems like a good idea.  I know I need to come up with a solenoid for it, but it seems good otherwise.
Thanks,
David.
Back to Top
Bruce W View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 July 2005
Location: Northeast Colorado
Status: Offline
Points: 9652 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2015 at 4:30am
  David, PM Sent.    BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
Back to Top
CubeTube View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 May 2020
Location: Fort Myers, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 24 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CubeTube Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec. 2020 at 3:51pm
Reviving an old thread... besides my 2A, I also am working on my father's Jeepster.  It has a T96 mated to a R10.  We are having issues with the overdrive engaging.  We have confirmed all wiring is operational, selenoid and kickdown switch are good, and the main relay is getting power as it should.  We have even went as far as removing the selenoid and manually engaging using a jumper wire and we can confirm the selenoid is engaging and staying engaged, yet still no overdrive.  After Thanksgiving dinner, we decided to pull the T96 and R10 to see if there were any mechanical issues, but do not see anything out of the ordinary wrong.  I have been reading online, and saw somewhere that the wrong fluid would keep the unit from engaging.  Do you guys really think wrong fluid would stop it from working?  I know 90wGL1 is the correct fluid, but I cant imagine something like incorrect fluid would stop it from working... nothing is ever that simple with these old Willy's.  Without completely disassembling the unit, we are at a loss.  Any help or insight would be great! 
48' 2A
Fort Myers, Florida
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2022 Web Wiz Ltd.