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Metcalf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2020 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:


Someone has to put a limited slip in the front and a LockRite in the rear.  That might be the best of both worlds.

I ran the opposite for a bit in my flatty, front automatic locker and rear power-lock. It actually worked pretty well overall. No steering issues since the rear wasn't trying to help too much. The vehicle is more capable now with a selectable rear locker, but having a little more than 'open' diff in some situations felt good. No buttons to worry about pushing either.




42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2020 at 5:20pm
Metcalf - how did your flatty do on rocks?
Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2020 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

Metcalf - how did your flatty do on rocks?


It was good, but having a rear selectable rear locker makes it more ultimately capable.

I would say the LSD rear did have some more nuance positives in certain situations where you don't NEED a rear locker but rear open isn't really enough. Cutting brakes might be another way to add some capability in that area with either an open or limited slip rear.


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2020 at 6:25pm
Never tried this but I’m  guess that having open differentials along with 4 independent brakes is the ultimate toward selectable traction.
Of course the independant wheel brakes need be pressure sensitive and not mearly on/ off.
Would prove difficult to control so many brakes at one time but should function very similar to a skid steer.
Possibly could work with some sort of stick control hand brakes.
Or just play dumb and let a computer decide which brake needs pushing.


Edited by oldtime - 22 June 2020 at 6:29pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2020 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

Never tried this but I’m  guess that having open differentials along with 4 independent brakes is the ultimate toward selectable traction.
Of course the independant wheel brakes need be pressure sensitive and not mearly on/ off.
Would prove difficult to control so many brakes at one time but should function very similar to a skid steer.
Possibly could work with some sort of stick control hand brakes.
Or just play dumb and let a computer decide which brake needs pushing.


One odd minus with using individual wheel brakes is the speed change on the opposite tire through the side gears. In a few cases it can help, but having the driving tire trying to speed up 2x the speed to the opposite axle can get a little funky.

Rock buggy comp guys use hand activated cutting brakes quite often, not only to do individual tires for dig/turning stuff, but also both tires on one end of the vehicle to help drag or settle one end of the chassis when driving only one end or the other. Skid steer brakes have been used in rock comp stuff with some success, especially in non-rear steer classes.  The Rainforest Challenge guys in south Asia use the heck out of air activated rear cutting brakes to help maneuver the vehicle. There are some neat rigs out of New Zealand that use hydraulic clutch lockers with a co-driver that has 4 levers to pull to make the vehicle do all kinds of crazy turns. It takes two drivers basically and is a very dynamic operation.

I don't really see rear cutting brakes with a rear selectable locker hurting much of anything. We all want to be Ken Block at some point. Shocked


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EJOWest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 12:58am
Wow great information! My plan is to really use this Build off-road, like on the Rubicon. I have other Jeeps to do trail rides and backroads. 
Thanks a lot for all the great information!  


Edited by EJOWest - 23 June 2020 at 1:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeepsterjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 2:54am
Originally posted by EJOWest EJOWest wrote:

Wow great information! My plan is to really use this Build off-road, like on the Rubicon. I have other Jeeps to do trail rides and backroads. 
Thanks a lot for all the great information!  

You need to figure out what you want.  A reliable off road vehicle that will do the Rubicon, Dusy,, Fordyce Creek, Moab, or a simple semi-stock Jeep.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EJOWest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 3:33am
Definitely looking for a reliable off road vehicle that can do Rubicon and others!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 3:55am
Then consider the std military 7.00 x16” tires as the minimum and 7.50 x16” as the maximum unless you decide to ditch the Ross box.
Obviously your wheels are already ideal for either of those tire sizes.
If you upgrade the engine then reconsider your transmission and axle selection too.


Edited by oldtime - 23 June 2020 at 4:03am
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeepsterjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 3:59am
Originally posted by EJOWest EJOWest wrote:

Definitely looking for a reliable off road vehicle that can do Rubicon and others!

Look into the Roxor D-44 Frt' and Rear diffs.  A basic bolt in.  You  can use a 18 x-fer. 


Edited by jeepsterjim - 23 June 2020 at 4:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by EJOWest EJOWest wrote:

Definitely looking for a reliable off road vehicle that can do Rubicon and others!

Then if you're planning on keeping the stock axles I'd definitely recommend a Lock Right in the front.  You are going to want that kind of performance.  You are very likely to find a Powr Lok to be insufficient on trails like that.  It will make driving in 4WD on a snowy freeway essentially impossible (way too dangerous in my experience), but since most old Jeeps don't do that it's no loss.  Otherwise the biggest drawback is that it will try to straighten out the steering any time you get on the gas with the front driveline engaged.  That's mostly just an annoyance that you can get used to (but it's a big part of why I'm not big on automatic lockers in a front axle if selectables are an option).

If there's a selectable locker available for your rear axle (sorry, I don't know), that might be your best bet there for least annoying quirks and best performance.  

If a selectable isn't available I'd go with an automatic locker in the rear too.  According to Metcalf that may exacerbate the handling quirks of the front locker.  But a lot of people do get by with this combo.  You will also end up with the quirks of a rear locker, even when in 2WD.  But those aren't that hard to live with if you are willing and able to read your vehicle and "drive to the vehicle."  Mostly that will mean don't get on the throttle too hard in turns (probably not a huge problem if you keep the engine stock!).  It's not that the locker will engage if you get on the throttle too hard.  Lots of people say that, but it isn't what happens.  The problem is that automatic lockers only drive the inside tire in turns, so it's easy to break that tire loose.  At best it results in tire noise, but when the inside tire catches up with the outside tire it can also make it easy to break the outside tire loose and swap ends.

If you REALLY don't want an automatic locker in the rear I'd either leave it open or MAYBE go with a Powr Lok.  With the front Lock Right you won't be in such bad shape without a rear locker, so this isn't unthinkable.  But I'd still recommend two lockers.
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EJOWest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 3:24pm
Thanks Bob for the advise. I've always wanted to try to keep the stock axles. After hearing more advise I'm now leaning toward the Lock-right in the front and selectable in the rear. I was checking out the OX lockers with manual shift system with or without a full floating axle kit. Metcalf's reasoning makes good sense to have that combination on the Rubicon and being able to select to unlock the rear and unlock the fronts with a good set of Locking hubs for on road.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chasendeer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 3:31pm
Come over and pick up a Dana 30 and put OX front and rear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote nivrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

Originally posted by EJOWest EJOWest wrote:

Definitely looking for a reliable off road vehicle that can do Rubicon and others!

Then if you're planning on keeping the stock axles I'd definitely recommend a Lock Right in the front.  You are going to want that kind of performance.  You are very likely to find a Powr Lok to be insufficient on trails like that. 

Sorry to disagree but this is just not accurate. In defense of the Powrl-lok may I offer some real world experience?
I'll use my beloved 75 CJ5 as an example. If you check out my Avatar picture on the Earlycj5 page you'll notice my Jeep pointing down from the top of Lions Back in Moab, circa 1992ish. It had Power-lok's front and rear. Back then I did all the fun trails including Cliffhanger, Moab Rim, and yes, even Pritchett (even though it took a few tries on the hard spots).
Rubicon you say? Verne and I did it in 2012, he in Ground Up (open/open) and me in my 75, Power-lok front/Detroit rear. Mar. 2013 JP magazine article documents our trip.
The uniformed like to immediately disqualify Power-lok's as soon as thy hear the word "clutches" or "limited slip" but here's something those clutches offer that Lockrites don't. When you are "going for it" on an obstacle and your front end bounces up and comes down hard with the wheels spinning (it's gonna happen to everyone at some point) the sudden shock of the wheel stopping on the ground causes a great amount of stress on the axleshafts. Having clutches provides a little "give" in the driveline that Lockrites don't offer. That is not to say that you can't break an axle shaft running a PL because I've done it but I will say that its less likely.
Finally, here's another point that most people don't consider when thinking of the differences between a PL and for the purposes of this conversation, a Lockrite.
A PL has a FULL CASE, providing much more strength than a stock carrier. PL's also have 4 spiders, twice as many as a stock case. Lockrites install in a stock case, with only 2 spider gears.
The attraction of the Lockrite is that it's inexpensive, installs in the stock case by just about anyone, not requiring ring and pinion setup, and for what they are they work.
But, I have seen more trail breakdowns of Lockrites, axleshafts, and carriers, than I ever have of PL's.
Hopefully this will clear up any misconceptions some may have about the PL. Oldtime gave some great points on them, and if our very own Brennan Metcalf ran one in a 44 with 35" BFG Stickies and they survived I'd say that's a pretty good endorsement.
In the end, it all amounts to personal preference and driving style, and what works for one won't work for another. Whatever you decide to run, use it to get out there and hit the trails and enjoy your JeepSmile

FWIW,
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by nivrat nivrat wrote:

Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

Originally posted by EJOWest EJOWest wrote:

Definitely looking for a reliable off road vehicle that can do Rubicon and others!

Then if you're planning on keeping the stock axles I'd definitely recommend a Lock Right in the front.  You are going to want that kind of performance.  You are very likely to find a Powr Lok to be insufficient on trails like that. 

Sorry to disagree but this is just not accurate. In defense of the Powrl-lok may I offer some real world experience?
I'll use my beloved 75 CJ5 as an example. If you check out my Avatar picture on the Earlycj5 page you'll notice my Jeep pointing down from the top of Lions Back in Moab, circa 1992ish. It had Power-lok's front and rear. Back then I did all the fun trails including Cliffhanger, Moab Rim, and yes, even Pritchett (even though it took a few tries on the hard spots).
Rubicon you say? Verne and I did it in 2012, he in Ground Up (open/open) and me in my 75, Power-lok front/Detroit rear. Mar. 2013 JP magazine article documents our trip.
The uniformed like to immediately disqualify Power-lok's as soon as thy hear the word "clutches" or "limited slip" but here's something those clutches offer that Lockrites don't. When you are "going for it" on an obstacle and your front end bounces up and comes down hard with the wheels spinning (it's gonna happen to everyone at some point) the sudden shock of the wheel stopping on the ground causes a great amount of stress on the axleshafts. Having clutches provides a little "give" in the driveline that Lockrites don't offer. That is not to say that you can't break an axle shaft running a PL because I've done it but I will say that its less likely.
Finally, here's another point that most people don't consider when thinking of the differences between a PL and for the purposes of this conversation, a Lockrite.
A PL has a FULL CASE, providing much more strength than a stock carrier. PL's also have 4 spiders, twice as many as a stock case. Lockrites install in a stock case, with only 2 spider gears.
The attraction of the Lockrite is that it's inexpensive, installs in the stock case by just about anyone, not requiring ring and pinion setup, and for what they are they work.
But, I have seen more trail breakdowns of Lockrites, axleshafts, and carriers, than I ever have of PL's.
Hopefully this will clear up any misconceptions some may have about the PL. Oldtime gave some great points on them, and if our very own Brennan Metcalf ran one in a 44 with 35" BFG Stickies and they survived I'd say that's a pretty good endorsement.
In the end, it all amounts to personal preference and driving style, and what works for one won't work for another. Whatever you decide to run, use it to get out there and hit the trails and enjoy your JeepSmile

FWIW,
Mike


If I could figure out a way to make the Power-lok have hydraulically applied clutch pressure on command I would swap back. I think one of the major annoying factors on all selectable lockers is two fold. One. They take some wheel rotation to engage. It would be really nice not to have to have any tire movement to engage. Two. Once you get them engaged they a typically bound one direction and don't like to disengage. It would be awesome if they could unlock in any condition without having to saw the wheel, move forward or back, turn, or wait for things to unbind.

The sad part is that technology exists....just not for the aftermarket.


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 6:16pm

You just need a 'factory' Dana 44 narrow track closed knuckle unicorn front axle. Then you have almost unlimited locker and gearing options. With a D44 LP you could run 5.89 gears with the tall skinnies for a little more umph on the road.


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 June 2020 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by nivrat nivrat wrote:

Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

Originally posted by EJOWest EJOWest wrote:

Definitely looking for a reliable off road vehicle that can do Rubicon and others!

Then if you're planning on keeping the stock axles I'd definitely recommend a Lock Right in the front.  You are going to want that kind of performance.  You are very likely to find a Powr Lok to be insufficient on trails like that. 

Sorry to disagree but this is just not accurate. In defense of the Powrl-lok may I offer some real world experience?
I'll use my beloved 75 CJ5 as an example. If you check out my Avatar picture on the Earlycj5 page you'll notice my Jeep pointing down from the top of Lions Back in Moab, circa 1992ish. It had Power-lok's front and rear. Back then I did all the fun trails including Cliffhanger, Moab Rim, and yes, even Pritchett (even though it took a few tries on the hard spots).
Rubicon you say? Verne and I did it in 2012, he in Ground Up (open/open) and me in my 75, Power-lok front/Detroit rear. Mar. 2013 JP magazine article documents our trip.
The uniformed like to immediately disqualify Power-lok's as soon as thy hear the word "clutches" or "limited slip" but here's something those clutches offer that Lockrites don't. When you are "going for it" on an obstacle and your front end bounces up and comes down hard with the wheels spinning (it's gonna happen to everyone at some point) the sudden shock of the wheel stopping on the ground causes a great amount of stress on the axleshafts. Having clutches provides a little "give" in the driveline that Lockrites don't offer. That is not to say that you can't break an axle shaft running a PL because I've done it but I will say that its less likely.
Finally, here's another point that most people don't consider when thinking of the differences between a PL and for the purposes of this conversation, a Lockrite.
A PL has a FULL CASE, providing much more strength than a stock carrier. PL's also have 4 spiders, twice as many as a stock case. Lockrites install in a stock case, with only 2 spider gears.
The attraction of the Lockrite is that it's inexpensive, installs in the stock case by just about anyone, not requiring ring and pinion setup, and for what they are they work.
But, I have seen more trail breakdowns of Lockrites, axleshafts, and carriers, than I ever have of PL's.
Hopefully this will clear up any misconceptions some may have about the PL. Oldtime gave some great points on them, and if our very own Brennan Metcalf ran one in a 44 with 35" BFG Stickies and they survived I'd say that's a pretty good endorsement.
In the end, it all amounts to personal preference and driving style, and what works for one won't work for another. Whatever you decide to run, use it to get out there and hit the trails and enjoy your JeepSmile

FWIW,
Mike

As I said earlier, I don't have personal experience with a Powr Lok.  I realize that in some ways it's a better clutch-type limited slip than most.

And perhaps EJOWest would be happy with the performance of a Powr Lok.  I know some are.  I still think (based on my limited experience with other limited slips, as well as watching vehicles with Powr Loks in YouTube videos) that for those kind of trails he would be disappointed.  Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong about that.  Take it for what it's worth.

As for a LockRight being harder on equipment than a Powr Lok?  No question that's true.  And while I haven't had a Powr Lok in my hands t look at, I don't doubt that it's a stouter product than a Lock Right.
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EJOWest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2020 at 3:33pm
Well after careful consideration I decided to go for the OX locker in the Dana 44 with a full floating conversion for the rear and Dana 30 with a OX locker for the front. A friend has a Dana 30 available. Figured if I'm going to do it I might as well go for it!

I found some 750-16 NDT in the Storage shed. Was thinking about putting these on to see how the clearance looks. Originally I was going to go with 700-16 NDT but I already have a set of 750-16 and the little extra height couldn't hurt on the Rubicon.
I'm hoping these will work without a lift. Any experience using 750-16 without lifting?

Ernie
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