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cj2a T90-d18 whine in 3rd when NOT under load

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jcelzinga View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 July 2019 at 9:05pm
Hey guys, I have been a long time listener first time caller, this page in general has been a life saver.

I have a brand new trans-transfercase from kaiserwillys a while ago, finally got around to putting it in my cj2a -49 and it whines in 3rd gear but the whine almost goes away completely when i put ON the gas. That is to say, when im coasting downhill in 3rd for example, its noisy. When im going back up that hill, it gets quieter. 


it also seems to go away completely when i push forward on my shift stick while in 3rd. like if i apply about 2 pounds of forward pressure it goes away completely.

I dont think its the diffs, I suspect its not the clutch either, because in both cases I would expect to hear some noise while in first or second which are quiet, I don't think its wear, both unites being brand new.

I looked online a good while before posting this and found plenty of the opposite problem, where you let off the gas and it gets better, and you put on the gas and it gets worse.

Any help would be appreciated, 

Cheers
Jeff Elzinga


Edited by jcelzinga - 06 July 2019 at 9:09pm
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jcelzinga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcelzinga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2019 at 9:05pm
If you want i could post a youtube link or something of the actual problem in action.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2019 at 9:31pm
Jceizinga,

Welcome to The CJ2A Page!

 I had a similar whine in 3rd while coasting.  It ended up being a drive shaft issue.

I am interested in seeing what others have to say.

Stev
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jcelzinga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcelzinga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2019 at 9:44pm
I have run it with the rear drive shaft removed in 4 wheel drive and the sound didnt change. 
( I try like every possible thing before i bother people hahahah, kinda like a guy who wont stop and ask for directions ... my kids wont even know what that is because of gps in your phones now that i think about it.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 July 2019 at 10:03pm
Welcome to the page, jcelzinga!

Since neither the tranny or X-fer case have been made new in a long time, I would wonder about your X-fer case intermediate shaft.  However, sometimes noises in an old Jeep can come from places other than where they sound like. Do you get the noise when there's someone else in the Jeep with you? 
There's a reason it's called Ol' Unreliable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcelzinga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 10:29am
Hello, thanks for the reply, 
It makes the noise with another person yes,
the reason i think its related to transmission is because if i hold the shift stick (still in 3rd) but pushing forward just a bit, the noise goes away. like if I attached a bit spring to the instrument panel and to the stick, it would reduce the problem to almost nothing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 10:54am
A suggestion....
Put transmission into 3rd gear and carefully lift the shift tower straight up off the transmission.

Take a close look at the position of the front synchronizer hub assembly. 
Is the hub properly located and fully meshed onto the foreward blocking ring ?

Take a close look at the front and rear sides of the foreward most shift fork.
Any signs of wear beginning to show on the direct drive shift fork ?
Does the shift tower assembly require a small adjustment ?

Note: Pushing the shift cane lightly foreward when in 3rd will push the front shift fork toward the rear of the synchronizer hub.

Shift everything by hand back to neutral when you re-install the shift tower.
You may be able to adjust the shift tower position on the transmission enough to eliminate possible synchronizer binding.
Try pushing the tower all the way back when you tighten it down......
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcelzinga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 11:51am
I like this approach, I'll give it a try and let you know what I find!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcelzinga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 2:21pm
Welp. shifting the thing forward did help a bit but the 3rd gear brass syncro ring is all torn up. 
I'll have to pull the entire thing next summer and do a redo :<

sucks because this was a brand new unite. I have another trans but i would rather not swap from under.
SUUUUCKS.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcelzinga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 2:22pm
the syncro went in brand new. ive literally put maybe 30 miles on the jeep since i put it all in last summer. any clue what would burn out the forward (engine facing) syncro so quickly?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 4:12pm
post a photo please
Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcelzinga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 5:43pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7MShq6xLGE
I'll post a demo of it making the noise in a minute
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcelzinga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 6:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 8:06pm
I'm going to guess that the maindrive blocking ring was never properly aligned when the transmission was initially assembled or it was dislodged prior installation.
Direct drive blocking ring dislodge could occur if the mainshaft was allowed to move aft about 3/16" or more prior to bolting it to the TC.

The thing you should do now is remove the oil collector and the maindrive gear.
Remove the mainshaft assembly including the pilot rollers.
Re-inspect all closely ...especially the 3 synchronizer plates and 2 springs.
Change the damaged blocking ring and re-assemble.

Edit : Took a look at your pic...

Fact is it looks to me like at least 1 of the 3  synchronizer plates is missing.
I'm not seeing any resistance when you slide the synchro hub fore or aft that makes me think all 3 of  the plates are missing.
So figure on 3 synchronizer plates, 2 synchronizer assembly springs and a new blocking ring.


Edited by oldtime - 09 July 2019 at 8:08pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lowenuf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 9:40pm
On top of oldtime's suggestion, I would like to add that possibly upon the rebuild, the original spacer was reused thereby retaining too much mainshaft endplay......  the manual calls for .005" endplay, i set mine to .003" and sacrifice a little "whine" as a trade off for positive gear retention......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcelzinga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2019 at 10:31pm
I really appreciate this information, 
Lucky i have an old T90 transmission I have laying about in the garage. I should be able to do a run through of the procedure on that trans before doing it on the real thing. 
again, thanks to the both of you. Fantastic information
Cheers
Jeff
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2019 at 10:52am
Pay close attention to the condition of 3 synchronizer plates.
The synchro plates are commonly one of the very first thing to go bad on a T90.
These oft have broken tabs on their ends.
On new synchro plates look for minute fractures where the plate makes a 90* bend at each end.

The 3 synchro plates are held in position to the synchro hub via 2 thin wire springs. 
And those 2 springs should be attached in a certain fashion as described in the USM.

Aftermarket replacement springs are often made from thick square stock spring material and those are far too stiff to function as they should. 
Make sure that your synchro plate tension springs were fabricated from thin gauge round wire.

Also on a synchronizer assembly that has had some amount of  wear....
Make sure the outer shift sleeve is re-fitted to the inner hub without changing or rotating the index.



Edited by oldtime - 10 July 2019 at 11:19am
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jcelzinga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2019 at 11:13am
Yea... amazing those were not there. like i previously said, the unit was totally new maybe 30 miles total on it, but at one point i stupidly let the shaft come out and had to reassemble those annoying needle bearings on the input. 

That said, the sync plates should not just fall out. I watched a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdBD659UQOY&t=2706s and it seems that they should be held in place by the springs after a fashion...

Thanks again for the help. 

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