Cj3a front axle mystery -- mix of threaded and wil

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   Help!  So I'm tearing into a recently purchased '49 cj3a to redo the brakes and shore up the front end (new bearings, checking kingpins) and am not sure what to make of what I've discovered.  On the front end, the axle shafts are different styles.  The driver's side is a reasonable threaded style.  The passenger side is a mystery.  No threads.  But also no lock ring (later style, I believe) OR bumps bumpstops on the splines (cut down original). I don't think it is a Spicer replacement because there is quite a bit of axial play which I wouldn't expect with a ujoint, right?  It also has warn locking hubs.  My main concern is that it was modified badly and now nothing controls the float.  Would it be enough if it just has the flanged bushing in the spindle?

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Oldshoe Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 07 May 2023 Location: Dallas, TX Status: Offline Points: 9	Post Options Post Reply Quote Oldshoe Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Cj3a front axle mystery -- mix of threaded and wil Posted: 13 May 2023 at 11:48pm
	Help! So I'm tearing into a recently purchased '49 cj3a to redo the brakes and shore up the front end (new bearings, checking kingpins) and am not sure what to make of what I've discovered. On the front end, the axle shafts are different styles. The driver's side is a reasonable threaded style. The passenger side is a mystery. No threads. But also no lock ring (later style, I believe) OR bumps bumpstops on the splines (cut down original). I don't think it is a Spicer replacement because there is quite a bit of axial play which I wouldn't expect with a ujoint, right? It also has warn locking hubs. My main concern is that it was modified badly and now nothing controls the float. Would it be enough if it just has the flanged bushing in the spindle?

Mark W. Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 09 Nov. 2014 Location: Silverton, OR Status: Offline Points: 7984	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mark W. Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 2023 at 11:59pm
	My Dana 25 has bendix axles with Warn 3 ring hubs the threaded ends were cut off by the Jeep mechanic at the local dealership in the early 60's when dad put the hubs on. The bushings were changed to the flanged style. These axles have been this way for by my estimation some 65,000 plus miles. I rebuilt them exactly this way when I completely went through it during my build. YMMV
	Chug A Lug 1948 2A Body Customized 1949 3A W/S 1957 CJ5 Frame Modified Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962

Agas46cj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 09 July 2022 Location: 17569 Status: Offline Points: 267	Post Options Post Reply Quote Agas46cj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 5:41am
	I have the same front axles in my 47 cj2a. I got the donor front axle assembly from a 49 cj3a. Bendix type. It should have the flanged bushing in the spindle. Both my left and right axles are the non snap ring or nut bendix type. I’m guessing at some point in the history of your jeep there was an axle failure and the replacement one was with the threaded one.

oldtime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4184	Post Options Post Reply Quote oldtime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 6:46am
	Can you post a pic of your R and L axle shafts with the spindles removed so we can see the type of joint inside the knuckle?
	Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts

Oldpappy Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 09 Apr. 2018 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 4908	Post Options Post Reply Quote Oldpappy Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 7:53am
	The front axle I removed from a 47 had two different axle shafts which is a common thing to see in these old Jeeps. The short axle shaft was the original with a threaded end with nut and washer bearing against the drive flange to set float. The long axle shaft was like the one in your picture.The bushing had been changed to the flanged bushing on that side and float was controlled using a bolt, washer, and one shim bearing against the drive flange using the threaded hole on the end of the axle shaft as I see in the picture of yours. It has a Rzeppa joint. Both of these axles were designed to use the drive flange for setting float. When lockout hubs are used in place of the drive flanges there is no way to control float or end play.
	If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there!

Jeff J Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 441	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeff J Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 8:24am
	Mine was the same way except the threads had been cut off of one side. I bought Spicer type axles to install because the Rzeppa joints were beyond saving and it does away with the need to fill the knuckle and axle housing with lube.

oldtime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4184	Post Options Post Reply Quote oldtime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 8:55am
	Spicer axle shaft joints require using gear lubricant inside the knuckles. This implies that the hemisphere must be smooth without striations and the seals must be in good condition to prevent leakage of the lubricant. Edited by oldtime - 14 May 2023 at 8:59am
	Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts

Jeff J Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 441	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeff J Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 9:21am
	What gets or needs the lube? The the u-joint is sealed. The king pins get greased just like the bearings in the hub. Is the hemisphere going to lockup unless it’s in an oil bath? Edit: with lockouts, only the bottom half gets any oil unless run in 4wd a fair amount. Edited by Jeff J - 14 May 2023 at 9:46am

oldtime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4184	Post Options Post Reply Quote oldtime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 12:30pm
	The original Spicer joints used were not sealed. The service manual specifies SAE 140 for spicer axle shafts. Group 20-05 I believe they are now available as original grease-able joints or as you suggest sealed joints. Spicer part number is 8126637BC or 8126637SP. Edited by oldtime - 14 May 2023 at 12:34pm
	Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts

Jeff J Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 441	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeff J Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 5:29pm
	I believe it’s the same u-joint part numbers as the drive shafts which is nice but that doesn’t really answer the question about what needs the lube. Edited by Jeff J - 14 May 2023 at 5:30pm

Agas46cj Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 09 July 2022 Location: 17569 Status: Offline Points: 267	Post Options Post Reply Quote Agas46cj Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 6:47pm
	They way I understand it, and I don’t have spicer axles yet, is that you remove the seals from the new u joints when you install them. My current understanding of this is that it’s the only way to lube them reliably without having to disassemble the knuckles. Once installed you can’t get to them anymore. I got this from watching a metalshaper video.

oldtime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4184	Post Options Post Reply Quote oldtime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 6:51pm
	No certainly not the same as propellor shaft universals. It is the early unsealed front axle joint trunnions that require 140 wt gear oil. No other way to lubricate them because greases do not flow at operating temperatures.
	Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts

Jeff J Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 441	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeff J Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 7:36pm
	I will have to look at mine when I get back to the shop in a couple of days but I am pretty sure the seals came installed on my new axles. I may have gotten mixed up on the u-joint part numbers. Parts book not handy but maybe it was the same part for all 4 places on the driveshafts.

oldtime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4184	Post Options Post Reply Quote oldtime Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: 14 May 2023 at 8:09pm
	Common grease-able Spicer universal used for all CJ propellor shafts. Common grease-able Spicer universal used for D25,D27,and D30 axle shafts. Note the neoprene seals on these new joints will interfere with 140 wt gear oil lubrication on closed knuckle D25 and D27 axles. This shows an original unsealed cardan cross trunnion as was issued with Spicer D25/27 axle shafts. The open exposed trunnion allows the 140 wt gear lube to do it’s job inside the closed knuckle. Upon close inspection the trunnion rollers are clearly open and visible. Edited by oldtime - 14 May 2023 at 8:34pm
	Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts

SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 3 Joined: 22 Jan. 2016 Location: S.E. Kansas Status: Offline Points: 3191	Post Options Post Reply Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2023 at 8:32am
	X2 Good information, Oldtime. Thanks.
	46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub) U.S. Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer(ret.) U.S. Army Vietnam veteran and damned proud of it.

Oldshoe Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 07 May 2023 Location: Dallas, TX Status: Offline Points: 9	Post Options Post Reply Quote Oldshoe Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2023 at 12:29pm
	Thanks, all, and thanks for the info on Spicer style--I'd like to rebuild the axle someday and include that change. My axles are bendix jointed. It is the short axle on mine that lacks threads or a retaining ring. If this is indeed a unmodified willys axle, and it sounds like it is, then is there really any need for something--castle nut or retaining ring--to limit inward play? Nothing here seems to do that. I'm curious because that makes it seem like the flanged version of the spindle bushing (which I believe can limit outward play) would take care of axle position and allow you to use locking hubs without much worry. To be clear, this jeep is dreaming of fire roads and light off road use with only occasional 4wd use. From a few of the early replies, this seems like a common approach. I might pull the spindles when I am next able to get to the garage to see what is in there. I'm suspecting that even the threaded side has the flanged bushing. Edited by Oldshoe - 15 May 2023 at 12:33pm

oldtime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4184	Post Options Post Reply Quote oldtime Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2023 at 2:06pm
	All front axle shafts consist of an inner shaft and an outer “stub” shaft connected via a universal joint. 2 distinct types of universal joints were used; constant velocity or Cardan cross. Excluding rare exceptions there were 5 different front axle shafts used on 1945-1971 CJ’s. 1) Early Bendix constant velocity shafts with threaded stub shafts. 2) Late Bendix constant velocity shafts without threaded stub shafts. 3) Early Rzeppa constant velocity shafts with threaded stub shafts. 4) Late Rzeppa constant velocity shafts with grooved stub shafts. 5) Spicer type Cardan Cross axle shafts with grooved stub shafts. (From 1955-1971) All axle shafts require end float control to maintain the universal joint at the center of the knuckle sphere. Bendix joints are of a loose design that allows elongation or limited separation of the joint. In fact one can determine serviceability of the Bendix joint by assembling the joint and holding the stub end while hanging the inner shaft. If the axle shaft stays together it is generally considered serviceable concerning wear. If it falls apart while hanging it’s time to replace the complete Bendix axle shaft. Inward Shaft Control All Bendix shafts require the large diameter bronze ring be present inside the knuckle to prevent the long shaft from migrating to far inward. This implies that all Bendix long shafts have a machined face to mate with the bronze thrust ring. Rzeppa and Spicer axles do not require the inner knuckle’s bronze thrust ring. There is no machined face upon the Rzeppa nor the Spicer inner long shafts. Rzeppa and Spicer shaft joints do not elongate nor separate; so inward shaft migration does not depend upon the hemisphere thrust ring. Inward migration is instead controlled at the drive flange via a snap ring. This effectively controls the complete axle shaft assembly from migrating too far inward. Outward Shaft Control Threaded Bendix outward migration is controlled via shims at the drive flange. Unthreaded Bendix outward migration is controlled via a flanged type spindle bushing. This implies that the outer Bendix stub axle shaft has a machined face to mate against the flanged spindle bushing. The early Rzeppa outward shaft control is via shim packs at the axle flange. The late Rzeppa outward shaft control is via a machined stub shaft face mating against the spindle bushing. Likewise Spicer outward shaft control is via a machined stub shaft face mating against the spindle bushing.
	Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B . T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts

Jeff J Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 441	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jeff J Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 15 May 2023 at 3:04pm
	For those who don’t know. There is a difference between regular 140W gear lube for a transmission or differential and the 140W gear lube for closed knuckles. The latter is thicker than the former. Edited by Jeff J - 15 May 2023 at 3:05pm