Cj3a front axle mystery -- mix of threaded and wil |
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Jeff J
Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 430 |
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I finally got a chance to look at my new axles. They came with the u-joints sealed. I am not going to unseal them. Nor am I going to fill the knuckle with oil. I simply cannot see the need for it since it would be exactly how the open knuckle axles are run. I will wet the knuckle seal with something to slow the wear and help keep dirt/water out. The king pins will be greased by hand.
The manual does not cover sealed u-joints nor lockout hubs as they were not a consideration from the factory.
Your milage may vary. |
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Ron D
Member Joined: 27 Oct. 2019 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 1403 |
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Just curious......what does the axle manufacturer say about lubrication? Does the spec sheet say factory sealed or permanently lubricated?
Edited by Ron D - 18 May 2023 at 10:18am |
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1951 M38
1951 M100 |
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Jeff J
Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 430 |
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The only info I can find is in the Willys manual and whatever is posted on the web. Some internet sources site different torque values for the bearing caps I believe to be correct but the Willys manual shows for the torque for the 41/44. The oldest axle I can find factory info on is the 44. I sent an email to Dana the other day asking about technical/maintenance info for the 25/27 axles but have not received a reply.
I do not see a way for anyone to argue against the factory expecting the axle to spin every time the vehicle moved. I look at it as the oil bath is fine when they do but no lube is available to the top king pin or half the cups when they don’t. After a while they will be dry. Edited by Jeff J - 18 May 2023 at 10:45am |
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Ron D
Member Joined: 27 Oct. 2019 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 1403 |
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My question is about your "new axles" (manufacturer) recommended lubrication --- not what the Willys manual says about lubricating the knuckles and kingpin bearings (which is already well known and understood). Do you know who made your new axles? Did they come packaged with manufacturer labeling, or were they in "plain brown wrapper" (i.e., unmarked packaging) like so much of our stuff is nowadays. And many of the vendors who sell them don't know or won't tell us who made them. While I agree that if those u-joints on your new axles are sealed it implies the lubrication is permanent --- it'd be nice if the manufacturer also published a document or label confirming it.
Edited by Ron D - 18 May 2023 at 11:04am |
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1951 M38
1951 M100 |
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duffer
Member Joined: 02 Feb. 2012 Location: Bozeman, MT Status: Offline Points: 1076 |
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I think you will "likely" be fine with this approach. When you think about this, those axle U-joints typically only see single digit percentage of use compared the same 1310 style driveshaft joint and the permanently sealed versions of those appear to run almost the same mileage as the greasable versions. I've always packed the kingpin bearings with wheel bearing grease anyway. At that point, the only function of the knuckle seals is to keep the dust and grit out of the axle tubes and spindle bushing. The only downside I can see here IS that spindle bushing not getting any lube. Most, if not all, the open knuckle spindle "bushings" are needle bearings. I'm not sure how wheel bearing grease would work long term on those bushings. |
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1955 3B: 441sbc,AGE 4 speed transmission, Teralow D18w/Warn OD, 4.11:1 D44's/ARB's, glass tub & fenders, aluminum hood/grill, 8274, York OBA, Premier Power Welder; 67 CJ5: 225,T86AA, D18, 4.88's, OD
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Ron D
Member Joined: 27 Oct. 2019 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 1403 |
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Can you give us a close-up photo showing the seals on these u-joints? |
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1951 M38
1951 M100 |
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dasvis
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Sep. 2019 Location: Salem, Oregon Status: Offline Points: 1518 |
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I say just run the axles WITH the seals on the u-joints AND fill the knuckle with whatever lube you are comfortable with.
Won’t hurt anything, & it will ensure bushings & kingpin bearings get lubed. Those u-joints will last forever properly greased on installation, & being in a sealed housing to keep dirt & water out.
Edited by dasvis - 18 May 2023 at 12:15pm |
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1947 CJ2A #88659 "Rat Patrol"
1953 CJ3A #453-GB1 11266 "Black Beauty" 1964 Thunderbird convertible ..... & one of them moves under it's own power!! |
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4139 |
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I agree there’s no reason why you could not install permanent lubricated joints.
I seriously doubt that permanent lubricated joints were ever available when these axles became available in 1955. Here is a closer look at original unsealed Spicer joints that remain in very good usable condition.
Edited by oldtime - 18 May 2023 at 12:28pm |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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dasvis
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Sep. 2019 Location: Salem, Oregon Status: Offline Points: 1518 |
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The only seal used on the really old u-joints was a cork washer type. That's why they used to caution you not to pump too much grease into them, or you would distort & or break the fragile cork.
With the newfangled rubber seals you don't have that issue.
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1947 CJ2A #88659 "Rat Patrol"
1953 CJ3A #453-GB1 11266 "Black Beauty" 1964 Thunderbird convertible ..... & one of them moves under it's own power!! |
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Jeff J
Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 430 |
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Jeff J
Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 430 |
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Having trouble posting pics again. That is the same picture just not shrunk as much. The 2 of the black seals are clearly visible.
Axles came plain brown wrapper with greasable u-joints. Spicer part number for non-greasable lifetime u-joints is 5-260x. I am thinking about swapping to those. No grease passages equal more strength.
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dasvis
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Sep. 2019 Location: Salem, Oregon Status: Offline Points: 1518 |
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True, they are stronger- but do you really think that the mighty 60hp of the L134 will break them?
Anyway, I would rather break a u-joint than strip a spline or worse
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1947 CJ2A #88659 "Rat Patrol"
1953 CJ3A #453-GB1 11266 "Black Beauty" 1964 Thunderbird convertible ..... & one of them moves under it's own power!! |
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duffer
Member Joined: 02 Feb. 2012 Location: Bozeman, MT Status: Offline Points: 1076 |
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IME, when you actually break one of those joints, you usually also destroy one or both shafts and end up dismantling most of it anyway. That said, even the 5-153X is as strong as the axle shafts which usually part company before the U-joint.
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1955 3B: 441sbc,AGE 4 speed transmission, Teralow D18w/Warn OD, 4.11:1 D44's/ARB's, glass tub & fenders, aluminum hood/grill, 8274, York OBA, Premier Power Welder; 67 CJ5: 225,T86AA, D18, 4.88's, OD
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Oldshoe
Member Joined: 07 May 2023 Location: Dallas, TX Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Hey folks, thanks for all the information. I finally got back into the garage and pulled the spindles off the knuckles. I'm at a bit of a loss.
Here is what I found on the side with threads. The spindle had the old style bushing, there was no flange. In fact, there was nothing between the bendix joint and the spindle. Note that there was also nothing behind the crown nut, no washers or spacers. Instead, I think that the outer axle was held in by a combination of two things. First, I think that the bump stops on the spindle might have been riding against the back of the inner ring of the free hub assembly. Second, it looks like the hub actuator was worn a bit and might have been helping. I also pulled the spindle from the other side, which you might recall had an outer axle with a smooth spline and no retaining ring. It also had no flange on the spindle bushing but did have a heavy washer between the spindle and bendix. My biggest question is whether the threaded side can be left as is for a little while or whether the setup is just asking for trouble. Would just finding a washer like the smooth side's between the joint and spindle be a good step? Here is the threaded axle and knuckle. Here is the spindle from the other side (identical except that washer).
Edited by Oldshoe - 20 May 2023 at 6:01pm |
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