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Clutch adjustment

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Steelyard Blues View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 July 2018 at 4:36pm

I’m looking to adjust the clutch and have a couple of questions. I do have the manual but I’m looking for clarification.

This is what she is doing: For the last few weeks, I have been getting a little nip when I go from first to second often no matter how slowly I upshift. Yesterday, I tried to downshift from third to second. I have never had a problem here. Yesterday, it would not go and I had to pull over when I was able to shift to first. Not much further, she did it again.

Worried that it was the trans, I let it sit for a while before doing a test drive to try and diagnose. Everything was fine for a while but then it would not downshift to second. I came to a complete stop but it would grind trying to get it to second or even first. I had to shut it off, put it in first and restart.

So, it appears that the clutch is not fully disengaging. The pedal does go all the way to the floor. The manual indicates a clearance of 1” measured at the pedal. Am I to understand that there is a hard stop for the pedal? I’m still learning this Jeep. The pedal has always gone to the floor even after I did a bit of adjustment a while back. I take it that I need to shorten the rod length.

Thanks,

Micah

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2018 at 8:18pm
Micah,
The one inch is at the top of the pedal before the throw out bearing contacts the fingers on the pressure plate. The floor is the hard stop at the bottom. 
Shorten up the cable until there is approximately 1 inch free play in the pedal before it stiffens up from contact on the fingers.



Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2018 at 3:57am

Stan,

Thanks for the reply. What was confusing me was the description in the manual about the pedal going to the floor:

“When sufficient wear occurs to cause the pedal to rest against the toe board it is necessary to adjust the free travel. The free pedal clearance is adjusted by lengthening or shortening the control level cable. Correct clearance is 1 ½”.”

So, a few minutes ago, I crawled under and tightened up the cable. Instead of making it better, it seemed worse. I went back under and loosened it considerably. I was able to get it into gear. I drove it around the block a couple times and was able to run up and down the gears.

This doesn’t make sense to me. If the clutch was not fulling disengaging, wouldn’t shortening it have solved the problem? Is there something else going on in there to cause a problem? I’m tempted to pull the shift levers off and take a peak. I didn’t see any issues when I took it off about 500 miles ago.

Micah  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2018 at 5:11am
Well, I took her around the block once more. I wanted to see if she was right since I take her to the gym during the week.
 
I cannot start her in neutral and shift into gear. I have to start with her in gear and the clutch depressed. Once running I can shift up and down as well as come to a complete stop and run her through the gears. If I shut her down, I again have to restart in gear with the clutch depressed.
 
So, something is dragging here. Any suggestions on what is happening?
 
Micah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wadoyado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2018 at 6:20am
I would check all pivot points for excessive wear or broke, make sure nothing is bent, nothing obvious, I'd remove the cover on the shift lever to gain access to the inspection cover, then you can see how much the throw out bearing is moving when you depress the pedal, could be loosing movement somewhere. Also the clutch fork could be off the pivot pin, or bent, just some things to check! Hope this helps Joe W
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48willys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2018 at 12:04pm
It could be a warped clutch plate or something like that. Pull the inspection cover and see if there is anything obvious wrong, would be a good time to get the bearing adjusted to the 1/6" spec and be sure your linkage is pushing on the fingers correctly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2018 at 4:28am

So, I pulled the access cover off.

With the clutch engaged, the throw out bearing rotated freely but there was a little play in it when I pushed forward on the front half of the bearing. It was not touching the fingers and had about ½” of play in the pedal. When I depress and release the clutch, I get a hollow rattling sound most likely from the bearing. I could drive it, but when the clutch is disengaged, the input shaft would take a second or two to stop rotating.

I adjusted the cable so that it had the inch of free travel. Strangely now, the engine which would idle perfectly would die as soon as I let off the gas. Now, with the clutch disengaged, the input shaft would still rotate. I could not start it in gear with the clutch disengaged. I got a noise like something metallic was lose in there. It did not sound good.

I’m not sure what is going on in there.  I cannot adjust it to spec. When I do, it then does not fully disengage. I do not see anything bent, missing or excessively worn. There does seem to be something rattling around in there and I wonder if the throw out bearing is toast.

I’m wondering if she needs a clutch.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48willys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2018 at 12:16pm
The bearing play probably is normal since it's a thrust type bearing. I'm thinking maybe the springs in the clutch disc are bad, I've seen them get so bad they rattle. Is the clutch oil soaked? Some material gets grabbier with oil on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2018 at 3:13pm
48,
I do have a front seal leak. A couple months ago, I had this cover off and sprayed some degreaser in there. I was planning on doing it again yesterday but when I looked inside, I was surprised that the pressure plate was oil free. Maybe I will hose it down one more time.
 
 
The rattle sound I am getting concerns me. I think I can get it adjusted to make it work for now. I don't like that it is not in spec. I don't want to push it and have it fail on me and leave me stranded. I'm seriously considering just replacing it all.
 
A friend suggested the pilot bushing may be bad causing it to drag on the input shaft.
 
How much grief is the clutch replacement? I don't want to pull the engine, so I will do it from underneath. I saw somewhere that the throw out bearing was pain and there was a trick to get it in. Cannot recall what that was.
 
I saw a good post on getting the flywheel and clutch installed: https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/flywheel-and-clutch-install_topic15770.html
 
Also, since I pull a trailer, I'm considering the heavy duty clutch.
 
Micah
1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 67charger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2018 at 4:13pm
You don't have to pull the engine the whole way out but it has to be separated from the transmission to replace the clutch.  I know you don't want to remove the engine but it is really simple to do on these jeeps.  If you do replace the clutch make sure you have somebody machine the the fly wheel and inspect for cracks.  If the ring gear is chewed up replace it, front input seal on transmission, fork, thrust bearing, pressure plate and flywheel bushing.  If you are going to go in that far, replace everything you can't do from the outside.  When I put my engine back in the jeep, I held it up with a big floor jack and used large bolts in the bottom ears of the block and bell housing and pressed the input shaft splines into the flywheel on the engine.  It worked perfectly because it went on evenly.  


Edited by 67charger - 18 July 2018 at 4:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2018 at 10:38pm
You might also check to see if the finger clearance on the pressure plate are within spec. Out of spec could cause 'partial' and unbalanced engagement. Hard to diagnose this stuff with the engine and tranny installed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2018 at 5:47am

So, today the credit card got a workout. I ordered all the clutch parts and a bunch of other small parts. The consensus seems to be to pull the motor. I have a couple leaks that I mind as well fix. The engine runs great. So, I don’t want to rebuild it at this time. The trans seems good too. I have only had it pop out of second a couple times. I’m going to replace the poppets. I really don’t want to do the clutch let alone anything additionally.

I have a couple questions.

1.       Are you pulling the engine and trans at the same time?

2.       What is the proper way to install the pilot bushing?

3.       I thought I saw someone having a trick to keep the throw out bearing in place while installing the trans.

I got a seal kit for the trans since it leaks from the front.

I think the rear main is actually good but, I’m going to drop the pan to take a look.

I have a leak at the front balancer. So, I plan on pulling the cover and replacing the seal.

My heat riser is bad but I could not get it apart in the Jeep. So, I will fix this also.

I have some exhaust leaks so I bought new seals and some studs just in case.

I might weld an O2 bung in so I can plug in my portable tester.

I have a hoist and I ordered an engine lifting bracket off eBay.

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-Willys-M38-Engine-Lifting-Hook-G-740/183164759268?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I will have the flywheel resurfaced. I need to find a clutch alignment shaft. Hopefully Auto Zone has a puller for the balancer.

I have some time off coming up. I’M going to try and get it done the week of August 6th.

Anyone have any tips or tricks?

Micah

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2018 at 1:21pm
yeah... watch out for scope creep Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2018 at 3:25pm
Oh, I'm quite familiar with that. I have done two ground up restorations. I plan to do one on the Jeep, just not right now.
 
I'm just going to do the steering box and master cylinder while they are easy to get to. Both have issues. The rest is to address leaks.
 
So, is it the easiest to remove the grill and slide the whole assembly forward?
 
Micah
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https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2018 at 4:28am
Remove the grille, fenders, and radiator.  The ease of access will make up for the time it takes to remove it all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2018 at 5:01am
Thanks. That stuff is easy to pull. Unfortunately, I had the radiator out just a couple weeks ago. I guess I will be losing a lot of my new antifreeze, again.
 
I was just poking around in the access cover. I think the throw out bearing return spring came off. It is MIA. That might be the metal I'm hearing flying around. It might have wedged itself in somewhere keeping it from retracting.
 
Still interested in the pilot bearing install. Do you just whack it in with a socket?
 
I don't have a dial indicator. How much of a big deal is the runout?
 
Kicking myself for not ordering an output flange seal. I just replaced it and the flange. Dripping. Damn.
 
Micah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 July 2018 at 2:08am
Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

Still interested in the pilot bearing install. Do you just whack it in with a socket?


No, you whack it in with a socket carefullyBig smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug. 2018 at 5:00am

Today, the engine and trans came out. I have to say it was a bit more of a pain than I expected. I have pulled a few motors over the years, but this one really had me concerned.

I purchased one of the engine lifting plates. It was worthless. It was too thick to have anything to for the nuts to attach to. Waste of money. https://www.kaiserwillys.com/new-engine-lift-plate-fits-41-64-wilys-jeep So, I picked an attachment point on the front timing cover and another below the starter. Not good choices.

I started pulling it but did not realize how the awkward weight of the transfer case would throw everything off. It ended up coming out sideways and nose up. I had to get it way further up in the air than I was comfortable just to get the parking brake drum over the crossmember. I was really concerned that I was going to drop this motor.

I would appreciate hearing how you guys pull a motor. Apparently, my way sucks. I’m really wondering about how I’m going to get this back in. Is it better to just do the engine and put the trans in from underneath?

So, to get to the original problem. I got the clutch out. One of the springs in the disk came out and must have gotten wedged in between the pressure plate. This is why I could not get it to disengage. I’m not sure but It looks like the other springs in the disk were coming apart too. Some of them were split in two pieces and were lose. I don’t think they came this way but I could be wrong. Also, the bearing looked fried and the return spring was MIA. The pressure plate and disk surface looked good. The flywheel looks good but I’m going to get it surface and a new ring gear installed.

I’m going to replace the front seal on the trans. She leaks like hell. Also going to do the poppets in the tower. I’m not looking to rebuild either the trans or the transfer. I have not had any problems besides leaks. For the third time this year, I’m replacing the output flange seal. PIA.

I have a leak in the front timing cover. It is not bad. I’m debating how much grief this is to do. What is the secret to get the pully off? I might pull the pan too.

Doing the master, steering box and heat riser before I stuff the engine back in.

 

 

Micah

 

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