|
|
|
Correct Transmission Fluid? |
Post Reply 
|
Page 123 4> |
| Author | |
SYLVANWILLYS 
Member 
Joined: 27 May 2011 Location: Ewing, NJ Status: Offline Points: 281 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Correct Transmission Fluid?Posted: 27 May 2011 at 2:36pm |
|
Hi, I'm wondering if anyone knows the correct fluid to use in the Transmission and Transfer case for a 46 CJ2A. Original Willy's documents say use Mineral Gear Oil, but when I spoke to Valvoline and a
often-referenced (positively in posts on the cj2apage) major CJ2A parts retailer, they said just use the regular 80-90 weight Hypoid gear oil used in differentials etc and sold in all normal parts stores. The original Willy's documents do say to use Hypoid gear oil in the differentials so I figure there must be a reason why they say use Mineral Gear Oil in the Tranny and Transfer Case. So, what do I use and where do I get it? Thanks for any help and enjoy your Memorial Day Weekends. Greg |
|
 |
|
|
sean
Moderator Group 
Sponsor Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: North Idaho Status: Offline Points: 7388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2011 at 3:47pm |
NO!  Do NOT use hypoid differential oil in the transmission. Just use regular non-hypoid 80-90 wt gear oil, available at any good parts store. |
|
|
|
|
murmsk
Member
Joined: 20 July 2009 Location: monmouth, IL US Status: Offline Points: 123 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2011 at 4:44pm |
|
what is Hypoid oil? It sounds like a childhood sickness.
steve |
|
|
1946 #61019+-
|
|
|
|
|
samcj2a
Member
Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 21 Oct. 2006 Location: Arlington, VA Status: Offline Points: 8539 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2011 at 5:11pm |
|
Steve,
Hypoid oil has more additives that are included so that the lubricant can withstand the greater gear pressures that are inherent with hypoid cut gears. Differential gears are of a hypoid design, but the T90 gears are straight cut.
That said, Sean, it is not clear to me why using hypoid oil with non-hypoid gears should be avoided. It seems as though the lubricant would still function just fine for non-hypoid gears.
|
|
|
|
|
sean
Moderator Group
Sponsor Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: North Idaho Status: Offline Points: 7388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2011 at 5:22pm |
It's the hypoid "additives", not entirely compatible w/bronze bushings & thrust washers.
|
|
|
|
|
samcj2a
Member
Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 21 Oct. 2006 Location: Arlington, VA Status: Offline Points: 8539 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2011 at 5:25pm |
|
That makes sense. When a more modern transmission contains hypoid gears, what materials are used for bushing and thrust washers? I can see that bearings could easily replace bushings, but some kind of spacers and thrust washers would be needed here and there, I think.
Edited by samcj2a - 27 May 2011 at 5:26pm |
|
|
|
|
sean
Moderator Group
Sponsor Member Joined: 20 July 2005 Location: North Idaho Status: Offline Points: 7388 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2011 at 5:45pm |
|
Sam, don't know how most newer transmissions are made bearing-wise, but transmission gears in general don't have the extreme axial offsets that differential gears have, which is the whole reason for EP hypoid "additives".
And I don't know the "chemistries" either, other than that many hypoid additives are sulphur based, and detrimental to phosphor bronze (yellow metals in general). YMMV
|
|
|
|
|
samcj2a
Member
Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 21 Oct. 2006 Location: Arlington, VA Status: Offline Points: 8539 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2011 at 5:50pm |
|
Thanks, Sean. If I ever see something that sounds authoritative on the unknowns here, I will post it along with the source
|
|
|
|
|
wyowillys46
Member
Joined: 05 Aug. 2005 Location: Denver Status: Offline Points: 1453 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2011 at 10:05pm |
|
Only first gear and the reverse idler are straight cut spur gears. Second and third are standard helical cut gears. Low range gears in the transfer case are also spur gearing.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729255 http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729289 Edited by wyowillys46 - 27 May 2011 at 10:08pm |
|
|
1946 #27869
Take a look at my webpage: <a href="http://wyowillys46.awardspace.com">Wyowillys46</a> |
|
|
|
|
bkreutz
Member
Sponsor Member Joined: 17 Oct. 2006 Location: Fruitland Idaho Status: Offline Points: 7037 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2011 at 10:43pm |
|
I use a GL4/GL5 rated gear oil. That way I don't have to remember which goes in which.
|
|
|
|
|
SYLVANWILLYS
Member
Joined: 27 May 2011 Location: Ewing, NJ Status: Offline Points: 281 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 28 May 2011 at 3:19am |
|
Thank you all for the feedback. What Sean is saying is very consistent
with what one of the Lucas Oil top tech guys told me. The tech guy
said that Sulfur is used in the fluids meant for Hypoid situations and
is what gives Hypoids their extreme pressure properties. He said Sulfur
damages Yellow Metals, like bronze and he felt that is why Willy's
would have said to use Mineral Gear oil. How sad it is that so many
people may have been told by experts (including Willy's jeep experts)
over the years to use the common gear oils that are good for Hypoid
situations. Yesterday the Valvoline tech guy repeatedly told me I
should use their 80W-90 Gear oil and told me the part number is
VV831. I just copied and pasted the following from Valvoline's MDS
sheet for that product from Valvoline's website and the MDS sheet
includes the following wording:
1) Hazardous decomposition products carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide, oxides of sulfur, nitrogen and phosphorus, Hydrocarbons 2) LUBRICANT ADDITIVE DI-TERT-BUTYL POLYSULFIDE 68937-96-2 PHOSPHORIC ACID ESTERS/AMINE SALT Pennsylvania RTK Does that mean the product contains Sulfur additives? If yes, then it sure sounds like it could be damaging the old CJ2As' internals. One more bit of information that the Lucas tech told me in case it helps anyone: He said the Lucas product that would be proper for the CJ2A transmission and transfer case would be their "50 WEIGHT SYNTHETIC TRANS LUBE" product (he said don't be fooled by the 50 WEIGHT wording because it actually has a 90 Viscosity and he said something like they put the 50 WEIGHT wording in there so people won't mistakenly think it is 90 gear oil for hypoid situations). He said they only sell it in a gallon size and that the part number is 10146. He mentioned some company that uses it in all of their big rig trucks' transmissions because they have bronze components within the transmissions. I will have to research the product a bit more to make sure that it is safe for the CJ2A. Any feedback on this Lucas product from all of you is greatly appreciated. Bottom line, as always, the devil is in the details. To be safe, I guess people should find out if the fluid in their trannys and transfer cases has sulfur additives. Thanks again to all and enjoy your holiday weekend. Best, Greg |
|
|
|
|
SYLVANWILLYS
Member
Joined: 27 May 2011 Location: Ewing, NJ Status: Offline Points: 281 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 May 2011 at 5:10pm |
|
Some new information I just found on the internet:
----Good related Discussion group link: http://www.jeepz.com/forum/cj-yj-tj-jk/2484-manual-transmission-fluid.html ----Will see from that discussion group that Red-Line and Pennzoil and GM have products that are Yellow Metal friendly. I've emailed Pennzoil for their input and will be calling Red-Line next week for their thoughts. ----Apparently Synchromesh (at least some of them) components within transmissions are made from Yellow Metals. CJ2A's have Synchromesh components? ---The previously mentioned Lucas product: I can't find it anywhere on Lucas' site even when I used the Lucas product number; however, when I googled the product name and part number i got hits to retailers that sell it and list it with that part number. I've emailed the local Lucas rep for links to technical data on this product. Will let you know if I learn any additional info. Thanks again. |
|
|
|
|
rigidsteel
Member
Joined: 21 May 2011 Location: york PA Status: Offline Points: 16 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 May 2011 at 5:14pm |
|
Just use regular gear oil 80-90w it'll be just fine.
|
|
|
DR Phelps
|
|
|
|
|
bkreutz
Member
Sponsor Member Joined: 17 Oct. 2006 Location: Fruitland Idaho Status: Offline Points: 7037 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 29 May 2011 at 8:42pm |
|
This article explains it pretty good.
http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/2007/article_gearoilbasics.aspx I'm not an Amsoil advocate (neither here nor there IMO) but the article appears in their site but they didn't write it. |
|
|
|
|
SYLVANWILLYS
Member
Joined: 27 May 2011 Location: Ewing, NJ Status: Offline Points: 281 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 June 2011 at 1:43pm |
|
HI, Just updating. Below is what both Pennzoil and Red Line Oil had to say on this topic. I will add more from other companies as obtained.
------------PENNZOIL: ----I Asked: Hi, I have a 1946 Willy's Jeep CJ2A. The original Willy's documents say to use a "MINERAL GEAR OIL" in my transmission and transfer case (for the Differentials they say to use a Hypoid gear oil). Can you tell me what Pennzoil product is safe and best to use in my Transmission and Transfer Case? ---- Pennzoil responded: Thank you for your inquiry. For your differential, you can use Pennzoil or any 80W-90 GL5 gear oil. However, for the Transmission and Transfer case, you will need an 80W90 GL1 or GL3 gear oil. That is difficult to find. You may be able to find it at your local Jeep or Mitsubishi dealer. ----I Askedl: Thanks for your quick response and I will call the Jeep dealer and ask if they have it. Can you let me know why the GL-5 gear oil is no good and also if Pennzoil Synchromesh Manual Transmission Fluid(I think that is the name) is good and safe to use in my Transmission and Transfer Case? ----Pennzoil responded: The GL5 has more of the EP additive then GL4, GL3, GL2 or GL1. The EP additive will destroy the Yellow metals of the Transmission or Transfer case. As for the Synchromesh it is a much lighter viscosity than the Gear Lubes listed below. Should you desire to speak with a technical representative to discuss this issue in more detail please call Pennzoil-Quaker State Technical Information at 1-800-237-8645. Sincerely Product Technical Service -------RED LINE OIL: ---I Asked: WHAT IS THE CORRECT FLUID FOR THE TRANSMISSION AND TRANSFER CASE. ORIGINAL WILLY'S DOCUMENTS SAY TO USE 80 OR 90 weight "MINERAL GEAR OIL". Thanks, Greg ---Red Line Responded: Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, in your Jeep’s transmission and transfer case the MT-90 would be recommended a good choice for both. Regards, Red Line Oil The "MT-90 link in Red Line's response does not seem to work here but it takes you to this web address: http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=46&pcid=7 ,, and the information on that product page includes:
|
|
|
|
|
samcj2a
Member
Sponsor Member x 5 Joined: 21 Oct. 2006 Location: Arlington, VA Status: Offline Points: 8539 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 02 June 2011 at 2:09pm |
|
Well, thanks to Greg for asking the question and Sean for posting the essential caution, and then Greg for pursuing more specifics from the suppliers, this has become a good education. Thanks to all.
|
|
|
|
|
Tom in RI
Member
Joined: 07 May 2009 Location: RI Status: Offline Points: 1010 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 03 June 2011 at 1:12pm |
|
NAPA still sells 90W GL-4 and I have been using it in my jeep.
|
|
|
|
|
SYLVANWILLYS
Member
Joined: 27 May 2011 Location: Ewing, NJ Status: Offline Points: 281 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 09 June 2011 at 4:15am |
|
Just wanted to share the latest from Valvoline and Napa:
-----VALVOLINE: can see one of my previous posts up above and what they had told me. Funny what happens when you call the same number at the same company and ask the same questions, but speak to a different technician! After sharing what Willy's calls for in the transmission and transfer case he said the best Valvoline product for this application is their: GL-1 MINERAL GEAR OIL and is a straight 90wt and they only sell it in 5 gallon pails and the part number is 70044 (I think it also is called Valvoline TRA Gear Lubricanta, 5 Gal, 90 and is that same Valvoline part number) and can get it at NAPA (which I verified by call NAPA). I asked the Valvoline tech if regular gear oils would harm the transmission and transfer case and he brought up how they have Sulphur and it hurts yellow metals. I also found it on Grainger's site and it may be less expensive. There seems to be no info on Valvoline's website and I called them back and they emailed a very brief one page product info sheet. If anyone wants to see it and if there is a way to post it on our website here then let me know. -----NAPA: When I called to verify they could get the Valvoline product the guy said that NAPA also carries a GL-1 gear oil and that is it made at the same factory as the Valvoline product and it is the exact same oil. I compared their product literature (including MSDS sheet) to Valvoline's and it seems that they are definitely not the same oil. The part number is NHF 65201 and it says that it is also a GL-1 90WT gear oil. -----LUCAS: You can see my prior info on what they had told me. As with Valvoline I called back and the rep I got this time of course recommended something completely different than what the first Lucas tech told me. I shared with him what the first rep said and he went back and talked to that rep and to a Lucas chemist and called me back and said the chemis suggests what the first rep said, use the Synthetic 50 wt Trans Lube product BOTTOM BOTTOM LINE: Read and review everything and make your own conclusions. For my part I think as a best guess hunch at this point I think that I will go with the Valvoline GL-1 gear oil and will buy the 5 gallon pail, which is more than I need. If anyone in the CENTRAL NJ AREA (Princeton/Trenton area) wants any, then just let me know and I can split proportionally as you need. Thanks again for everyone's help and if anyone learns anything more, please add on here. I'll never believe again that there is something called a "simple question"!! Best, Greg |
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
|
Page 123 4> |
| Tweet |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
SYLVANWILLYS wrote: