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Crack Repair - engine water jacket

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Greaser007 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Crack Repair - engine water jacket
    Posted: 15 Oct. 2019 at 1:17pm
Greaser007 here:   _ _ again. I have an "idea"

   Actually, may better be called "Visions of Sugar Plums dancing in my head."

   Here is the deal:
   I have a GPW engine with what might be a 3-1/2-inch long crack in the water jacket lying about 1-3/4-inches below the surface of the engine block deck. My thoughts of "fixing" this are many. hahaha   There are 101 ways to skin the cat.

   I have been snooping the LocknStitch website and i do like the L10 & L15 locks that they offer. In the area where this crack lays, because of the proximity to the block deck surface, i am sure there will be tensional pull on the crack area when torqueing-down the head studs.
   My Backyard-Homeowner FIX alternative to the cost of LocknStitch, is to use weld fillets as the locks.

   Using Harris NLW-99 nickel electrode (rod), i propose to
#1: V-groove the long crack and stitch weld back together, drilling a hole at each end of the crack.
#2: V-groove a cross-stitch and weld in one continuous bead start-to-end.
#3: same as #2
#4: same as #3


this photo shows a possible long crack in water jacket.
I have not yet confirmed with magnaflux, so just a guess.
Hopefully i can haul the block to Red Bluff soon to get it checked.


   this photo is my Cartoon of how i intend on making my repair.


   photo of a crack to be repaired from Doug O Neil, Auburn, Ca.


   another photo of welded crack repair from Doug.

   In esscence, the Mig-Master welder in Jay Leno's Garage youtube vids does remind us that welding Cast is not always successful. He's good with Tig !

   Hahaha. I thought this "vision" may generate some Discussion thoughts.
   This could be a game-changer for this little engine block. I am going to run this by my Machinist @ A&A Machining & Welding, to see what smirk i get from him.
   Now that i have been snooping around his shop since having him make my T-18 conversion pieces and parts modifications, we have enjoyed comparing-notes.
   So i will spring this on him next week. He'll probably give me a swift kick and sound laugh. snicker.   :)

    Len

Edited by Greaser007 - 15 Oct. 2019 at 1:27pm
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Oldpappy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct. 2019 at 2:10pm
I will be interested in the result. I have a CJ2A engine with a crack in the same place. Seems to be a common area for cracks whether a Ford or Willys block. 

There was a welder at a local machine shop who used what he called "Powder Welding" to fix cracks. He had a good reputation for success, however he died of a heart attack last year. 

I don't have immediate plans for using the cracked CJ engine, as I have a better engine to use in my Jeep, but I do want to see about getting that crack fixed because it was a good running engine with low mileage for it's age and still at standard bore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tow hook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2019 at 12:54pm
my f head has a crack water jacket crack, between cylinder 2 and 3 . it goes threw to the threads of the head bolt. I was told this is common and opted to just not tighten the bolt down to spec. i debated about welding it, but got a spare block for 30 bucks just incase. i havent run the engine yet, and hope it works, i have to much in to the block money and time wise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct. 2019 at 1:44pm
I would not have rebuilt an engine using a block with a known crack without having it repaired. As you say there is a lot of money and time invested in a rebuild.

If you haven't ran it yet, there is still time to disassemble it and get the crack fixed, which is what I recommend, but if you don't want to do that there is something the machine shop I use calls "Cold Weld" which is a sealer for cracks like that. 

It comes as a little green ball which you place into the water jacket, not the radiator. I have never seen it anywhere for sale, so don't know where the machine shop gets it. They guy just gave me one once.

I used that with good result on an old Ford 8N tractor engine, which is very much like a Jeep engine, and ran it for years without further leaks. A buddy of mine still uses that old tractor and I have never heard him say anything about it leaking.
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92889 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 92889 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct. 2019 at 12:26pm
I used lock n stitch with great results
I am not a mechanic but found it to be a very manageable repair.

I do hear what you are saying about the cost though. I thought it was worth it versus paying the machine shop to fix it or scrapping the block. 

Good luck with the weld repair. Please post pictures. I am curious to see how that works out for you.

My experience with the crack repair is blogged here if you are interested:

15 Field RCA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calndrman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct. 2019 at 12:47pm
My story is similar so I will share what happened to me. After purchasing my 2A in September 1989, it started burning nearly as much oil as gas.  I had a friend in church who was a mechanic and offered to do an overhaul if I assisted. We pulled the motor and took the block to the machine shop. A day later I received a call from the machine shop saying they found a crack in the block from the 3rd cylinder intake valve, across the top, and about three inches down the cylinder wall. I asked him what he suggested and his first response was to let me throw the block into a ditch on his farm! When I told him that wasn't an option, he gave me the name of the welding instructor at the local tech college.  I called him and said I had a 1949 2A and he immediately said, "You have a crack in the block, don't you?" He said he had fixed many such cracks. I took the block to his class. He V grooved it and welded with a nickel welding rod (because it melts at a lower temp). The best part was he used this as a teaching lesson for his class and did not charge me anything! I took the block back to the machine shop where they overbored the 3rd cylinder and sleeved it to match the other three.  That was 30 years ago this December and we have not touched it since.  
Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 92889 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct. 2019 at 3:06pm
Magnaflux is probably the best way to definitively locate the crack and that is how mine were initially found. By the time I got the block home and was ready to fix it with lock n stitch the crack had disappeared. (I neglected to mark it with a sharpie which would have been the smart thing to do.) We used a 100 year old locomotive mechanics method of soaking the area in oil, wiping the surface dry then covering the area in chalk dust. The moisture in the crack wicks into the dry chalk dust to reveal where the crack is. It’s a low cost low tech solution that worked very well for me. 

Edited by 92889 - 19 Oct. 2019 at 7:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom in RI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct. 2019 at 8:49pm
A bunch of cracks on the deck adjacent to head bolts and also cracks on the side of my GPW block were fixed with lock n stitch 20 years ago.  A sleeve also had to be pressed into the distributor tunnel because there was a crack in there too.
I'll be watching your weld repair successes with interest. One done here to a friends jeep didnt work too well. They explained away the problem as being because the original casting had contaminents and porosity that contaminated the weld. It leaked from pinholes after welding so they drilled and epoxied those pinholes. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct. 2019 at 11:01am
Thank you guys for the Responses.

I really do enjoy reading of your experiences shared of what results you have had with Block Crack Repair for the L134 engine.

I am not a professional welder, but I do know what I have witnessed in my 68 years of kicking dirt-clods. And I always do like new challenges.

   Here is what I know First-Hand from having a Ford Taurus head successfully repaired which had 11-Cracks in it.
   20-years or more there was a guy up near Paradise, California, who specialized in cast-iron repair. His name was Dan Geezick.
He pretty much kept the local farmer's broken machinery repaired. In all my dealings with Dan, I always had my wife deliver and pick up the parts to be repaired. Dan had ovens to stress-relieve all components after the Repair prior to machining.
    One day, I asked Dan if he grinds open the cracks and welds them back with fillets, and he said YES. He upped-and-retired out about 15-years ago, and I have not been able to locate him since. I never did ask him what electrode he was using, but I am certain he had more than one way to skin-the-cat.
My guess is, he may have used brazing in some instances.

   I like Ken's (oldtime) suggestion where he uses nickel rod with little pre-heat.

   I am still in cardiac-arrest after speaking with the techie at our local Napa machine shop, where he said he could easily put $7k into an L134 build.
   I may be Dumb, but I am not that Dumb to be swayed into dumping $7K into a Willy's L134 engine.

   I have not priced LocknStitch, but I like the clever little Guide for drilling holes for the lock and pins. very cool.

   This thread will die and go dormant until I get the block magna-fluxed down in Red Bluff by the old chevy mech who just bought out a machine shop, and hopes to open it soon.

   Cummins blocks had a bad year, and I again, need to research how those have been repaired.

   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom in RI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct. 2019 at 11:20am
If you choose to pursue the lock n stitch repair its probably less expensive to find a shop that specializes in doing it. The machine shop that reworked my engine "had a guy" - another shop - that crack repair is what they did.  They mostly made their income on heavy equipment repair. 
So possibly a call to the lock n stitch manufacturer may help find a specialist shop. 
Good luck with the repair whichever route you take. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov. 2019 at 3:19pm
New update report:

   I delivered two 134 engine blocks to a machinist in Red Bluff, California a week ago today for hot-tanking, magnu-fluxing and inspection.

1. an F-head block
2. a GPW engine block with suspect crack an 1-1/2 inch below block deck.

   The Outcome:
block #1 - the cylinders have very little ring wear. Cylinder No. 1 is bored .040 over, and cyl's 2,3 and 4 have been bored .030.
There is a crack in the block deck in the normal spot between openings between cylinders 2 and 3 which has been pinned previously. The exh valve seats look good and are hardened inserts. The machinist, Ron Rominger, said once the deck is surfaced and the cylinders are bored to .060, it will be a good Builder.

Block #2 - This little L134 is stock bore and has a distinct ring groove in all cylinders which the machinist thinks will clean up to .040 overbore.
The suspect horizontal crack in the water jacket just below the block deck is about 5-inches long in two separate arcs. The crack from the rear curve and runs down to a half-moon crack running around the top of the Dist. boss.
Then, he pointed out a 5-inch long crack running horizontal below the dist. boss.   OMG !
   Wow, now I have a challenge to either purchase loc-n-stitch, or find someone who has one, OR, I can V-groove the cracks and break out the AC welder and do as Oldtime suggests, "cold-weld at low amps with Nickel electrode."

   I will attach photos of my crack repair results once I get to the Task.
( I have a hunch I will be doing lots of grinding to prep the block first ).

   Oh, too, the head for the F-head engine had a crack through one intake valve seat which the machinist suggested pinning and inserting a seat. Also, there was a small crack in the spark plug hole at no. 1 cylinder which he said doesn't go near the water jacket from his experience.

   ONE POINT OF INTEREST the machinist mentioned:
The hole down through the distributor boss can leak water from the water jacket too, which he has seen over the years. He said this is normally contributed to rust-through from not using Coolant.

    Again, guys, thank you for sharing your thoughts !
and 92889 - Jon, thank you for that link you attached. I will look into the cost of the Loc-n-Stitch product $$$$. :)

   While I am busy typing, I wanted to mention one thing about cracks in heads.
The '86 Ford Taurus head casting had 11-cracks. I pulled the head because the piston skirts were cracking, and very noticeable with a flashlight looking up from the bottom of the engine with oil pan removed. OMG, no wonder it sounded like noisy lifters.   The head did not leak water, and the engine ran fine.
I went ahead and had the cracks repaired by the guy in Paradise who specialized in welding cracks. This makes me wonder that if cracks are not leaking water or oil, maybe just leave them well-alone. Currently, I do not have a method of pressure testing the heads or engine blocks, but I guess it may be possible.

    Len

Edited by Greaser007 - 14 Nov. 2019 at 3:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom in RI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov. 2019 at 3:32pm
My GPW block had a leak in the distributor tunnel.  A stainless steel sleeve was pressed in to solve the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov. 2019 at 4:26pm
I am a little confused, if the bores on engine #1 are all good with no ring wear, why are you boring them to .060 over? I might bore the three that are .030 over to .040 over just so I can order & install a new set of four .040 pistons. But I would not bore the one that is already .040 over if I do not have to. That makes it so I can get at least one more rebuild out of this block.

Some one is sure to say that boring from .030 to .040 cannot be done. If the machinist is good & they have good tools it is doable. I have done it & I am not a machinist, not even in my dreams. I once honed a cylinder from .010 to .020. It took a while, but it worked.

Heck, If the pistons & the bores are good, I would lightly hone the bores & just buy two sets of rings. I would use three from the .030 set and one from the .040 set. These are not race engines. It will be just fine as is.

Now if you plan on racing this Willys, then by all means spend as much money on this tractor low RPM, high torque, engine as you want to. That is what Mark W. from Silverton Oregon is doing. It will still be a tractor low RPM, high torque, engine. Yet, I am very interested to see how much power it gains him.

Edited to correct the impression that these engines are tractor engines. They are well suited to power tractors, but Willys never used them for that application. Thanks again Bruce.










Edited by cpt logger - 14 Nov. 2019 at 6:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov. 2019 at 4:54pm
Cpt, you keep referring to the Go-Devil as a “tractor engine”. They are not, except maybe in your opinion.
  Willy’s-Overland won the contract to build the 1/4-ton 4X4 truck largely because of their 60 horsepower engine that they had been using in passenger cars and light trucks. Ford was passed over largely because they used the 9N tractor engine. W-O used the Go-Devil in passenger vehicles and light trucks for several years after the war and MB production ended. True, W-O tried to market the civilian jeep as a small tractor, but it didn’t work real well, no fault of the engine. The engine was used in a tractor, the “Empire”, but that was not a W-O product. The Go-Devil was not used in any tractors before the war that I’m aware of, particularly not any built by Willy’s-Overland. 
You can think what you want, but please don’t say things that will have the newcomers here believing that the Willy’s-Overland Go-Devil was originally a tractor engine.   BW
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov. 2019 at 6:03pm
Bruce, I sit corrected. Thank you for that. Like you, I do not want to mislead anyone, newcomer or not.

While IMHO it is a tractor engine, it was not used as a tractor engine by Willys.

I probably should say it is a low speed, (RPM wise), high torque engine that has a power curve best suited for tractors +/or Trucks. It will live a good, long life if treated somewhat nicely. Again IMHO, It does not turn fast enough to get much improved power from most "upgrades" that do help their higher RPM cousins.

BTW, How soon will we see your "Hot Rod" Willys engine preform. IE; How are you coming on the project? I have not checked up on it for awhile.

Thanks again, Cpt Logger.

PS. I learned how to drive on both a MB & a GPW. We used them around the farm to pull discs & hay wagons. They rarely saw blacktop.






Edited by cpt logger - 14 Nov. 2019 at 6:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov. 2019 at 9:19pm
Cpt Logger said, "BTW, How soon will we see your "Hot Rod" Willys engine preform. IE; How are you coming on the project? I have not checked up on it for awhile."

I have not done much, other things seem to get in the way. My "hot rod" will be more like a "warm stick", I'm afraid. My emphasis is more centered on making the Go-Devil stronger on the bottom end of the curve, hopefully without hurting the top end. More bore, more compression, more valve lift with no more duration, a little bit of exhaust back-pressure, etc. In other words, I want to make it pull like a tractor engine Wink, not rev like a drag car. I'm watching Mark, I really want to see that one run. Thumbs Up   BW

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Nov. 2019 at 2:17pm
Tom in RI:
   Do you remember how the machinist opened-up the Distributor hole in preparation of the sleeve ?   a hone or ream ?

   Out of fun we tend to call these little 134 engines "tractor" engines because most of the time they are putsying or chugging along a jeep trail. We know they were never used in farm tractors, but it is fun to refer to them as such. haha

   Now, I forgot to ask my machinist if the magna-fluxing reveals cracks in the distributor bore. doggonit, I will have to call him for clarification.

   and CPT Logger:   I agree with you on the thought of not boring all cylinders to .060 over-bore, but that was the recommendation of the machinist if he were in charge of the rebuild to feel confident of his work.

   I have often wondered just how much a sleeving job of all 4-cylinders will affect the integrity of a block. I guess the machinists should have a feel for this, because if they wound up with complaints from customers after having driven the jeep for awhile, I would think the machinist would be the first person contacted with any failures.

   I have not made any forward progress, because I have been saddled with working on family member's stuff, like digging out old septic lines and mucking sewage. Therefore, no grinding for V-grooves on engine #2, the GPW with cracks in the water jacket.

   Thanks again, guys for the interesting feedback.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov. 2019 at 5:10am
Yes a tractor engine, Tongue
https://empiretractor.net/history/

cheers
Bill

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