Dana 18 Shift Rail Seals |
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wheelie
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 25 Jan. 2011 Location: red lion. pa Status: Offline Points: 814 |
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Good to know. Thank you.
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cyates176FA
Member Joined: 12 Apr. 2022 Location: EAST TENNESSEE Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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Got the QTM seals in today. Still no luck. Pulled the front cap and the seals simply will not go in. Double checked the note was clean, nothing out of the ordinary. Tried pressing them in, tried tapping them with a mallet, tried using a socked on an extension. They will just about seat, and then kick out of the bores. Unsure of next steps. I’ll take it to a transmission shop tomorrow and see if they’ll press then in for me. Not sure if the shift rails will push them back out though, since it seems to be an extremely tight fit.
For reference, my micrometer measurement are below. Bore: 1.0750 Seal OD: 1.1285 Difference of 0.0535 (assuming that’s the nylon or whatever the outside coating on the seal is).
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Jeff J
Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 429 |
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I don’t understand how you could press the seals in and have them pop out on one side. Are you just trying to start them instead of installing them fully with the press?
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cyates176FA
Member Joined: 12 Apr. 2022 Location: EAST TENNESSEE Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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I can get the seal barely seated, from where the bottom of the seal turns under just a bit. Once I put pressure on it (either with a vise or by tapping with a mallet and socket) it pops out and won’t go in.
I dropped it off at the transmission shop this morning. Spoke with their master rebuilder and he said the seals were .050 too big based on his measurements. He’s going to find the seals that fit it and get them pressed in for me. Not sure why there’s a discrepancy in the bore size; but there appears to be, based on mine and the shops measurements. The shift rail itself fits the ID of the seal just fine. I don’t know a root cause for sure just yet. The guy at the shop said it may be either a reproduction cap, or could’ve been NOS with a slightly different bore. Regardless, he’s going to work on it for me today and get me a seal that’ll fit correctly (and will be installed by a professional, with less frustration than I have, and the proper tools, lol). I hope that he’s successful, and I can report back better news this evening. They’ve rebuilt 2 transmissions on previous Jeeps for me and my father in the past, so I feel confident in their work.
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RonF
Member Joined: 18 Aug. 2010 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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I would use the double lip seals available from RFJP
or the entire gasket set with double lip seals
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Best Regards,
Ron Ron Fitzpatrick Jeep Parts |
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cyates176FA
Member Joined: 12 Apr. 2022 Location: EAST TENNESSEE Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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Appreciate it!
I didn’t see the dimensions listed, so I will reach out to see what they are. Unless you’re the Ron F. of RFJP, and can tell me on here, lol! If they’re smaller than the others that are on offer around the web I’ll be sure to keep them in mind.
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RonF
Member Joined: 18 Aug. 2010 Location: Oregon Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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your way over thinking this use a driver and install the seals, unless part of the old seal is still in the seat they will go right in sold 1000's without issue
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Best Regards,
Ron Ron Fitzpatrick Jeep Parts |
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Jeff J
Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 429 |
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If it makes you feel any better, I just had one seal go cockeyed on me. I got a little greedy and tried to do both at the same time. One drove flush in one hit. I should have known better because the face of that part isn’t flat.
I had a thought about yours while doing mine. Could someone have sleeved or otherwise repaired the holes?
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cyates176FA
Member Joined: 12 Apr. 2022 Location: EAST TENNESSEE Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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Very well could have. I cleaned it up with a nylon wire wheel on my Dremel, and it looked “shiner” than the rest of the metal, so potentially it’s been sleeved or otherwise repaired. Only thing that would make me question that is that the oil seals I pulled out looked either original or much older (sturdier construction, more solid). But I don’t know a lot about when seals changed looks and stuff. I’m hoping the shop will have some insight/ guidance for me today.
Hard to tell what’s been done or fixed along the way, I guess. I’ll keep y’all posted.
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cyates176FA
Member Joined: 12 Apr. 2022 Location: EAST TENNESSEE Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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I’ve tried a few different method to get these seals in. I took measurements and the seal is .050 larger than the bore. The seals I took out came out intact, and I’ve cleaned the bore up with a nylon brush. Not doubting the quality, etc. of any of the parts I’ve come across. Just unsure that the common offerings will fit the bore of the cap that I have - for whatever reason. The yoke seals went in just fine, with just a regular mallet and driver. The shift rail seals are just proving to be a bear. Commenter below suggested they may have been sleeved or otherwise repaired. Not sure if that, though anecdotally it did look “shinier” after cleaning with the nylon wheel. I’ll see what the shop says, and maybe he’s just more patient than I. But I’ve never had a seal give me a fit like these. They’ve come from 3 separate sources (KW, Novak, and QTM). So I’m leaning towards either the cap being repaired at some point, or it being some sort of reproduction with an incorrect bore. I will keep y’all posted.
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cyates176FA
Member Joined: 12 Apr. 2022 Location: EAST TENNESSEE Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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Spoke to the shop a little bit ago. He tried to put the seals in as well, with no luck. Said that it just looked to be an odd bore size. There didn’t look to be any inserts, and there weren’t any remnants of the old seals or anything. He talked to his supplier and ordered seals based on the bore size. Should be in early/ middle of next week. I appreciate everyone’s advice and suggestions. Looks like maybe I just have an odd part, or it’s been repaired at some point over the years. I can tell that someone has been in the transmission and TC before, as the oil slinger was deleted (and the bolt holes filled with RTV ). Wouldn’t surprise me if something was done in the TC as well at that time.
I’ll keep y’all posted, in case the information I get back can be useful to others tackling these rebuilds. It’s been frustrating to be this close and hit a wall over a simple seal; but this forum has once again proven to be a good sounding board - as well as a wealth of information.
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Jeff J
Member Joined: 12 Mar. 2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 429 |
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There is quite a difference between the Crown seal and the NAPA (SKF) seal. Hole diameter is ~0.015 smaller than the NAPA seal.
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cyates176FA
Member Joined: 12 Apr. 2022 Location: EAST TENNESSEE Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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The types that I tried were National, Crown (same part# as your pic), and Precision. The ID seemed to fit around the shift rail alright, though the National may have been either slightly larger or just a stiffer inner seal. Neither myself nor the transmission shop could get them in. I think you were onto something earlier with the comment around to perhaps being repaired at some point.
I’m hopeful that the seals he’s sourced from his supply house will work. I’ll be sure to get the part number and keep it in the safe deposit box for future reference, haha! Appreciate the pic and the suggestions! Love the old Jeeps; but it can get a little frustrating from time to time.
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Bruce W
Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9611 |
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I cant see how any repair to the bearing cap would result in the bores being smaller than original, especially without being apparent. And they certainly didn’t grow shut. The seals you have been sold are wrong. .050” interference is definitely too much, and I’m not a machinist or an engineer. I ran into the same problem with the shift-shaft seals on my son’s Muncie. Buy good stuff, get good stuff. Buy sh!t, get sh!t. I know, how do you know? Good question. But we’ve got to let the suppliers know that they’re selling us bad sh!t.
BW
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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cyates176FA
Member Joined: 12 Apr. 2022 Location: EAST TENNESSEE Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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I’ve not determined for sure that a repair was made. Just considering it as an option. Perhaps it was damaged at some point and filler metal was added and shaped? Far fetched maybe; but 76 years is a long time.
As far as the seals go, I bought them from multiple sources that I’ve bought from before. I don’t want to jump to conclusions about quality from those folks, as they are working to keep these vehicles on the road. Would 4 sets of seals all be bad (across 3 brands and multiple suppliers)? Maybe. But the fact that they didn’t fit led me to consider the cap as the outlier. Once I have the cap back from the shop and have a chance to talk to the rebuilder, then I can approach the folks I purchased them from to let them know what happened. Don’t want to “let them have it” if the issue was with the cap. I do agree with your sentiment, though. Have to keep our suppliers informed if they’re feeding us incorrect parts.
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SlowPoke
Member Joined: 07 Nov. 2021 Location: SLT Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Just an idea, what about a short piece of 2x4 or 4x4 say 5 or 6 inches long, counter sink a hole for each shaft with a forstner bit just big enough to go over the shafts. Drill them deep enough so the block sits flush and whack it gently with your choice of weapons to seat the seals. Good Luck, SlowPoke
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cyates176FA
Member Joined: 12 Apr. 2022 Location: EAST TENNESSEE Status: Offline Points: 130 |
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I didn’t try exactly that; but I did try a washer that fit very snug around the shaft and then a piece of tube the same OD as the seal, and tapped with a mallet. It wouldn’t seat beyond the slightly under-turned bottom lip. I tried several seal about every way I could think of. And, just another note, both bores are the same size. So either both have been repaired at some point, or it could simply be an odd-ball part.
TQM was obviously in its infancy in the late 40s, so it does seem at least *plausible* that one slipped through with incorrect bore size. Thankfully Dr. Deming cleared that up for us later on, haha!
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WeeWilly
Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 07 May 2009 Location: Clayton IN Status: Offline Points: 3422 |
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I just had to go down in the COLD barn after following this post and measure a TC case for the shift shaft seal bore. Close as much as I see was 1.125. Maybe someone on here has a TC case tore down and could get a better measurement. Looks like from what measurement you gave that your housing is the problem. Do you have the old seals you took out?
Jim
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47 CJ2A (Ranch Hand) 48 CJ2A, 48 Willys truck, T3C 3782, M274 (Military Mule)
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