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Dana 18 Shift Rail Seals

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheelie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar. 2023 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by Oldpappy Oldpappy wrote:

Everything I have bought from QTM has been top quality. I used their seals in the last TC I worked on and they fit fine. 

Good to know. Thank you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar. 2023 at 8:25pm
Got the QTM seals in today. Still no luck. Pulled the front cap and the seals simply will not go in. Double checked the note was clean, nothing out of the ordinary. Tried pressing them in, tried tapping them with a mallet, tried using a socked on an extension. They will just about seat, and then kick out of the bores. Unsure of next steps. I’ll take it to a transmission shop tomorrow and see if they’ll press then in for me. Not sure if the shift rails will push them back out though, since it seems to be an extremely tight fit. 

For reference, my micrometer measurement are below. 

Bore: 1.0750
Seal OD: 1.1285

Difference of 0.0535 (assuming that’s the nylon or whatever the outside coating on the seal is). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 9:04am
I don’t understand how you could press the seals in and have them pop out on one side. Are you just trying to start them instead of installing them fully with the press? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 9:20am
I can get the seal barely seated, from where the bottom of the seal turns under just a bit. Once I put pressure on it (either with a vise or by tapping with a mallet and socket) it pops out and won’t go in.

I dropped it off at the transmission shop this morning. Spoke with their master rebuilder and he said the seals were .050 too big based on his measurements. He’s going to find the seals that fit it and get them pressed in for me. 

Not sure why there’s a discrepancy in the bore size; but there appears to be, based on mine and the shops measurements. The shift rail itself fits the ID of the seal just fine. I don’t know a root cause for sure just yet. The guy at the shop said it may be either a reproduction cap, or could’ve been NOS with a slightly different bore.

Regardless, he’s going to work on it for me today and get me a seal that’ll fit correctly (and will be installed by a professional, with less frustration than I have, and the proper tools, lol). 

I hope that he’s successful, and I can report back better news this evening. They’ve rebuilt 2 transmissions on previous Jeeps for me and my father in the past, so I feel confident in their work. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 11:31am
Best Regards,

Ron

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 11:36am
Appreciate it! 

I didn’t see the dimensions listed, so I will reach out to see what they are. Unless you’re the Ron F. of RFJP, and can tell me on here, lol! 

If they’re smaller than the others that are on offer around the web I’ll be sure to keep them in mind. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RonF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 11:42am
your way over thinking this

use a driver and install the seals, unless part of the old seal is still in the seat they will go right in

sold 1000's without issue
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Ron

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 11:43am
If it makes you feel any better, I just had one seal go cockeyed on me. I got a little greedy and tried to do both at the same time. One drove flush in one hit. I should have known better because the face of that part isn’t flat. 

I had a thought about yours while doing mine. Could someone have sleeved or otherwise repaired the holes?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 11:54am
Very well could have. I cleaned it up with a nylon wire wheel on my Dremel, and it looked “shiner” than the rest of the metal, so potentially it’s been sleeved or otherwise repaired. Only thing that would make me question that is that the oil seals I pulled out looked either original or much older (sturdier construction, more solid). But I don’t know a lot about when seals changed looks and stuff. I’m hoping the shop will have some insight/ guidance for me today. 

Hard to tell what’s been done or fixed along the way, I guess. I’ll keep y’all posted. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by RonF RonF wrote:

your way over thinking this

use a driver and install the seals, unless part of the old seal is still in the seat they will go right in

sold 1000's without issue

I’ve tried a few different method to get these seals in. I took measurements and the seal is .050 larger than the bore. The seals I took out came out intact, and I’ve cleaned the bore up with a nylon brush. 

Not doubting the quality, etc. of any of the parts I’ve come across. Just unsure that the common offerings will fit the bore of the cap that I have - for whatever reason. The yoke seals went in just fine, with just a regular mallet and driver. The shift rail seals are just proving to be a bear. Commenter below suggested they may have been sleeved or otherwise repaired. Not sure if that, though anecdotally it did look “shinier” after cleaning with the nylon wheel. 

I’ll see what the shop says, and maybe he’s just more patient than I. But I’ve never had a seal give me a fit like these. They’ve come from 3 separate sources (KW, Novak, and QTM). So I’m leaning towards either the cap being repaired at some point, or it being some sort of reproduction with an incorrect bore. 

I will keep y’all posted. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 3:55pm
Spoke to the shop a little bit ago. He tried to put the seals in as well, with no luck. Said that it just looked to be an odd bore size. There didn’t look to be any inserts, and there weren’t any remnants of the old seals or anything. He talked to his supplier and ordered seals based on the bore size. Should be in early/ middle of next week. I appreciate everyone’s advice and suggestions. Looks like maybe I just have an odd part, or it’s been repaired at some point over the years. I can tell that someone has been in the transmission and TC before, as the oil slinger was deleted (and the bolt holes filled with RTV Thumbs Down). Wouldn’t surprise me if something was done in the TC as well at that time. 

I’ll keep y’all posted, in case the information I get back can be useful to others tackling these rebuilds. It’s been frustrating to be this close and hit a wall over a simple seal; but this forum has once again proven to be a good sounding board - as well as a wealth of information. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 5:18pm
There is quite a difference between the Crown seal and the NAPA (SKF) seal. Hole diameter is ~0.015 smaller than the NAPA seal.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 5:26pm
The types that I tried were National, Crown (same part# as your pic), and Precision. The ID seemed to fit around the shift rail alright, though the National may have been either slightly larger or just a stiffer inner seal. Neither myself nor the transmission shop could get them in. I think you were onto something earlier with the comment around to perhaps being repaired at some point. 

I’m hopeful that the seals he’s sourced from his supply house will work. I’ll be sure to get the part number and keep it in the safe deposit box for future reference, haha! 

Appreciate the pic and the suggestions! Love the old Jeeps; but it can get a little frustrating from time to time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 9:15pm
  I cant see how any repair to the bearing cap would result in the bores being smaller than original, especially without being apparent. And they certainly didn’t grow shut. The seals you have been sold are wrong. .050” interference is definitely too much, and I’m not a machinist or an engineer. I ran into the same problem with the shift-shaft seals on my son’s Muncie. Buy good stuff, get good stuff. Buy sh!t, get sh!t. I know, how do you know? Good question. But we’ve got to let the suppliers know that they’re selling us bad sh!t. 
BW 
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Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2023 at 10:49pm
I’ve not determined for sure that a repair was made. Just considering it as an option. Perhaps it was damaged at some point and filler metal was added and shaped? Far fetched maybe; but 76 years is a long time. 

As far as the seals go, I bought them from multiple sources that I’ve bought from before. I don’t want to jump to conclusions about quality from those folks, as they are working to keep these vehicles on the road. Would 4 sets of seals all be bad (across 3 brands and multiple suppliers)? Maybe. But the fact that they didn’t fit led me to consider the cap as the outlier. 

Once I have the cap back from the shop and have a chance to talk to the rebuilder, then I can approach the folks I purchased them from to let them know what happened. Don’t want to “let them have it” if the issue was with the cap. 

I do agree with your sentiment, though. Have to keep our suppliers informed if they’re feeding us incorrect parts. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SlowPoke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 1:12pm
Just an idea, what about a short piece of 2x4 or 4x4 say 5 or 6 inches long, counter sink a hole for each shaft with a forstner bit just big enough to go over the shafts. Drill them deep enough so the block sits flush and whack it gently with your choice of weapons to seat the seals.  Good Luck, SlowPoke
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyates176FA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 1:21pm
I didn’t try exactly that; but I did try a washer that fit very snug around the shaft and then a piece of tube the same OD as the seal, and tapped with a mallet. It wouldn’t seat beyond the slightly under-turned bottom lip. I tried several seal about every way I could think of. And, just another note, both bores are the same size. So either both have been repaired at some point, or it could simply be an odd-ball part.

TQM was obviously in its infancy in the late 40s, so it does seem at least *plausible* that one slipped through with incorrect bore size. Thankfully Dr. Deming cleared that up for us later on, haha! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar. 2023 at 3:33pm
  I just had to go down in the COLD barn after following this post and measure a TC case for the shift shaft seal bore. Close as much as I see was  1.125.  Maybe someone on here has a TC case tore down and could get a better measurement.  Looks like from what measurement you gave that your housing is the problem.  Do you have the old seals you took out?

   Jim
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