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Dauntless Drivetrain Change

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JeepFever View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov. 2017 at 5:33pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

Not to be critical, just a yokel observation, The parts you have collected and are working with would be for a person who has lots of time, but not much money.
. . .

If you have neither time, nor the money ..... well, ......just have to comb the adds and have lots of patience.



A very good observation !!    My only reason for doing it the hard way is that I have had this one for a long time,   a part of the family.  haha

Somewhat on the same note . . one of the disappointing things about doing this upgrade (because I can see lots of $$$ if I want to do it somewhat quick,  and the way I want it)  ->   now when on a trail ride with a bunch of expensive Jeeps,  I won't be able to say to myself "I just did almost every thing they did in a $2000 Jeep"   haha

I started riding some with a local group whenever they do some trails tougher than a leaf run.   Many of them have been modding their TJs JKs,  but are just learning to drive offroad.   On a recent run,  one of the guys behind me said "that old Jeep goes better than mine".   I didn't have the heart to tell him I had not pulled the 4wd lever yet. LOL     

Here is photo of that run.   (I did have to pull lever for this, of course)




Edited by JeepFever - 04 Nov. 2017 at 4:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov. 2017 at 5:54pm
I hear ya, and I've had the privilege of wheeling with you

Let me know if you need anything.
CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov. 2017 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by JeepFever JeepFever wrote:


I started riding some with a local group whenever they do some trails tougher than a leaf run.   Many of them have been modding their TJs JKs,  but are just learning to drive offroad.   On a recent run,  one of the guys behind me said "that old Jeep goes better than mine".   I didn't have the heart to tell him I had not pulled the 4wd lever yet. LOL     

This is one of my favorite things about driving an old pile of rust. 

My 1st Favorite is actually being able to do the obstacle, make the climb, etc.

2nd favoite - Parking my rust pile next to a $60,000 rig in some spot that they think only they can get to cuz they have spent the giant $$, and then just sayin' "how ya doin'?"

It might get me  hurt someday. Evil Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov. 2017 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by smfulle smfulle wrote:

Originally posted by JeepFever JeepFever wrote:


I started riding some with a local group whenever they do some trails tougher than a leaf run.   Many of them have been modding their TJs JKs,  but are just learning to drive offroad.   On a recent run,  one of the guys behind me said "that old Jeep goes better than mine".   I didn't have the heart to tell him I had not pulled the 4wd lever yet. LOL     

This is one of my favorite things about driving an old pile of rust. 

My 1st Favorite is actually being able to do the obstacle, make the climb, etc.

2nd favoite - Parking my rust pile next to a $60,000 rig in some spot that they think only they can get to cuz they have spent the giant $$, and then just sayin' "how ya doin'?"

It might get me  hurt someday. Evil Smile


I used to do both of those with my beater '64 VW Baja. It used to just piss off the "Jeepers".Thumbs Up

I once did this with a '59 "Hippy Van". Flowers painted on the sides & all. They were not pleased.Evil Smile

This post may get me kicked off of this forum if any of the moderators remember me from those days.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov. 2017 at 7:19pm
I am basically a shy person who does not like to draw attention to himself, or his jeep.  When I do a knarly obstacle,  my intention is to simply go the shortest path to maximize fuel economy.  Nothing more. Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov. 2017 at 8:03pm
Not much I can say. I used to drive my '64 Bug into places that others have to go to 4X4 to get to. I learned from my father.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov. 2017 at 9:20pm
Quote My plan all along has been for wide ratio 4-speed with the flanged axle D44.  I have both D20 and D300 xfer cases,  but did not plan to re-gear them,  so am thinking the D300 because of better stock ratio.   Both of my D300's are the round ones from mid '80's CJ-7s

Honestly Dana 20 is a poor choice with it's lousy Jeep ratio of 2.03.
But it's an exceptional choice if you can afford to install the Tera Low 5 Gear set.
D-300 would mandate getting a special adapter and  I'll bet thats not cheap.
The crawl ratio is good but not optimum.

Personally I'm not overly sentimental with my old Jeeps nor parts and assemblies.
I sell them as soon as I'm positive that I no longer need for them.
By far the hardest thing for me has been to abandon the Willys 134 engines.
I just love that old tractor effect.
But the way I use my jeep it no longer makes sense for me to drive the older engines.
All because I never trailer my Jeep, preferring to depend solely upon the Jeep.

I fully understand collecting lots of various Jeep components.
It gives one the ability to precisely envision various  build options.

You cannot fully know how various  assemblies might fit together until you have had them on hand.
But when it comes to actual assemble you will find that you no longer have need for certain parts or  assemblies.

Honestly there's just a lot of tough choices to be made for any build.
But when you choose the right ones for you then you'll be happy.



Edited by oldtime - 03 Nov. 2017 at 9:30pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov. 2017 at 4:01am
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

D-300 would mandate getting a special adapter and  I'll bet thats not cheap.

What adapter would be necessary for D300 that would not also be necessary for D20? I am currently thinking of going SM465 route, I thought both xfers would need an adapter?

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:


Personally I'm not overly sentimental with my old Jeeps nor parts and assemblies.

I can't count the times someone has asked "would you sell it, and what's your price?", but I always answer "I could not sell it"

I love this '2A and all our history together.

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:


By far the hardest thing for me has been to abandon the Willys 134 engines.
I just love that old tractor effect.

I have not had the pleasure yet. . maybe someday, (if I ever get the '3A running). I was going to post a link to my rust-bucket'3A build on cj3apage, in case anyone was interested, but just noticed it has been gutted by the PhotoBucket fiasco (the first few pages of photos)

I have wheeled with some 134's, and the sound always reminds me of WWII movies or M.A.S.H. haha

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:


I fully understand collecting lots of various Jeep components.

Not sure if I am a collector, or a hoarder. :-) Most of what I have came very cheap or free. Even my '3a came from someone up the road, who noticed my Jeeps and asked if I wanted it, for free. It was very rough, but fairly complete.   

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:


Honestly there's just a lot of tough choices to be made for any build.
But when you choose the right ones for you then you'll be happy.


So true.

My current thoughts . .   (You and Jeff have convinced me to abandon the SM420's)

Dauntless, SM465, Dana300, twin stick, 3.73 gears, selectable lockers front and rear

If Jeff is right and 64:1 leaves me wanting lower (because I get opportunity for more than 1 decent rock-crawling event every two years), then 4:1 gears in the D300 at a later date.







Edited by JeepFever - 04 Nov. 2017 at 4:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov. 2017 at 4:34am
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

I hear ya, and I've had the privilege of wheeling with you

Let me know if you need anything.


One of my favorite rides!    

I am sure I will have more questions, or request of opinions, as I go forward.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov. 2017 at 5:56pm
I have a Dauntless 225 and SM420 sitting in my shop. I have decided to sell the 420 and go with a Ford T18 - shorter driveline and less hassle. That is, When I find a CJ5 to drop it in.

Good luck with your project.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov. 2017 at 9:34pm
Quote What adapter would be necessary for D300 that would not also be necessary for D20? I am currently thinking of going SM465 route, I thought both xfers would need an adapter?
Yes a Dana will also need an adapter for mating it to an SM 465. 
Not familiar with adapter prices differences  but you should be able to source them from Novak or Advance.
T18 only needs a factory adapter plate plus you can mate mate it to either D18 or D20.
Personally I prefer the D20 over the D300 for that reason.
D300 may be a tad stronger than D20 but thats really not an issue unless its mated to a huge HP engine.

Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov. 2017 at 1:50am
Why not go with an NP-435 tranny?  It's 40 lbs. lighter and over an inch shorter than the SM-465.  It's the same weight as the SM-420 and just 3/10" longer. 
There's a reason it's called Ol' Unreliable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov. 2017 at 4:22am
Now WHY did you have to go and do that?   

Since I am most likely not using the SM420's and starting from scratch, it would make sense to investigate all options, and not assume SM465.

Absolute definite ->
1) Front end power = 225 Dauntless from late 60's Commando
2) RearEnd = '72-75 Dana 44 flanged axle from CJ-5

Tranny, xfer is up for grabs.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov. 2017 at 4:02pm
IMHO 225 Dauntless is an excellent choice for any of the pre-1972 CJ's.
Your axle selection is from 1972-1975 CJ..
That axle is  top off the line and can be made to fit any pre 1982 narrow track CJ.
It is  equal to the  famous 1970 /1971 offset carrier flanged shaft  variety of Dana 44.
The center carrier section mandates that you go with either D20 or D300 transfer case.
If you ever want to go back to an offset carrier Dana 44 then choosing a D20 easily wins out over the D300.
D20 selection allows you to easily convert back to a D18.
If you ever want to get a lower transfer case gear set either the D20 or D300  can suffice.

If one chooses D18 they can install 25% O.D. 
Given enough HP the 4.88 FDR becomes optimal because it yields a Compounded FDR of 3.66.

If one chooses D20  then O.D. becomes an extremely uncommon option. 
Installing a 4 speed is a huge recommendation because of that.
3.15 TL gear set is also a huge recommendation over the Jeep D20 standard of 2.03.
3.73 FDR provides excellent axle gearing for sustained cruising.

If one chooses D300 then the ratio reduction improves over that of the D20 yet it still remains below optimum. 
According to Novak the strength improves somewhat and it allows for quieter operation due to helical gears
But IMHO it provides no other advantage over the D20.
Yet it is most certainly do-able and fine if you never go back to an offset carrier.




Edited by oldtime - 06 Nov. 2017 at 4:39pm
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov. 2017 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

If you ever want to go back to an offset carrier Dana 44 then choosing a D20 easily wins out over the D300.
D20 selection allows you to easily convert back to a D18.

Good point,  did not think of that.

As you mentioned earlier,  not easy decision.    D20 seems like the way to go until I looked at what it costs for the low gears.
D300 with 2.62 would give about 64:1
D20  with 3.15 would give about 77:1  (but cost another $1000, if I am looking at the correct kit)

Decisions, decisions

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov. 2017 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by JeepFever JeepFever wrote:

...Decisions, decisions
... well in that case, are you dead set on not using a D18 with offset diff? ..... I mean, the D41 is actually a pretty strong rear axle, IMO,  you can keep the 5.38s and your overdrive.  go with a granny tranny and now you have a basement that is in the 80's and an FDR of 4.3..... and you already have everything.  Then start wheeling while you are on the lookout for an offset flanged D44 ...... or stay with the D41.

... I guess I'm saying, if you stick with offset rear, you can swap this stuff out as you go with less down time.  In my own experience, I like the D20 because you can do front wheel drive.  I have used this twice to fix a situation where I got jacked up on a greasy hill..... but what i don't like about it is that I've noticed that the centered pumpkin has been detrimental to me compared to  sonoblast77, smfulle, and Bob W where they were able to straddle a rock, but I'd catch it on my centered diff.  Maybe wouldn't be so bad with tires bigger than 31" ..... just one of my observations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov. 2017 at 4:38pm
So that kinda goes full circle back to the D18 vs D20 issues.

Perrhaps the biggest difference being D20 requires centered carrier which effects your "line" when driving.
Like Jeff says the front and rear carriers are not "in line" for obstacle clearance.
Next most notable difference is the D20 increase of propeller shaft clearance and drive angle.
Then comes the Transfer case mounting / insulator differences.
Finally like Jeff has done... a custom twin stick and shift rail modifications that allow front wheel drive only.
Simply not possible with a D18 twin stick.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov. 2017 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

Then start wheeling while you are on the lookout for an offset flanged D44 ...... or stay with the D41.
... I guess I'm saying, if you stick with offset rear, you can swap this stuff out as you go with less down time.  
In my opinion, and we know what those are worth. This (less down time) is the key to happiness. Fixing and wrenching is ok, and something to do in the winter when you can't be on the trail. 

Driven' them jeeps is the most fun I've had in my life, and when my rig is in pieces and not ready to go it really bums me out. 

jpet, oldtime and others are really smart on what equipment works best with what combination. I'm glad we have them to coach us along. All those numbers just swim around in my head and come out looking like alphabet soup. But what I do know, at least for me, whatever gear is in the drive train, if you are doing this, then you're doing it right.


(photo by Greg of rme4x4.com)

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