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Death wobble

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nofender View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar. 2020 at 8:29am
I would add on the kingpin bearing topic - I found the solution on one of my Jeeps to be the bearings. But really the bearing itself was fine. It was the race. Once the wobble starts, you could have worn a "pattern" into the race. Mine had a significant spot in the race where it allowed the slop, which I can only assume caused the problem. Bearings ended up being the solution in my case. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar. 2020 at 11:04am
This thread has a picture of my worn king pin bearings and an interesting drawing with some tech talk.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote General Eisenhower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar. 2020 at 2:33pm
I should add as well. Even though it steers fine normally, when the death wobble commences, the wheel doesn't shake cause I'm holding it, yet the wheels are maxing out the turn radius' 

I still will check the kingpin bearings and races. I doubt it'll be easy, but I'm running out of options 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gunslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar. 2020 at 10:43am
I have this same problem on my M38 A1, I've replaced the tie rod ends, confirmed toe in, replaced the shocks and balanced the tires.  I took the hubs off and checked the King King Bearings, they have been adjusted for pre load a couple of times, but this last inspection revealed Brinelling on both the left and right side, these need to be replaced, While I'm at it I'm going to re-build the Steering box to eliminate any contribution it might make.  I found also that the Tight Steer sold by Walks does an excellent job of maintaining the correct tolerances in the Ross box thus reducing issues there.

So as Lee and others pointed out, its not just one thing that needs to be right to solve this problem, but it is solvable and your jeep will drive a lot better for all of the work you do to fix it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote General Eisenhower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2020 at 1:11pm
So I am gonna dig into the kingpin bearings and see what's happening in there. 

Can anybody tell me the parts I'd need to replace, like seals etc before I do it, so I can order them, thanks.

Does anybody know if MB bumperettes would fit on a cj2a rear bumper?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 10:07am
You may need knuckle to ball seals if yours can't be reused, and if you repack wheel bearings you will need those seals.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 10:33am
MB bumperettes will fit on a CJ2A frame.  You just have to drill holes for them.


EDIT :  So much for double tasking. 



Edited by Stev - 31 Mar. 2020 at 10:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 9:40pm
Steve, I think that you posted about the bumperettes in the wrong thread.?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 10:02pm
This is just my way of looking at the two things that will kill you the fastest in a vehicle. Steering and brakes.

FIX OR REPLACE EVERYTHING BUT THE NON SERVICEABLE PARTS

My point is if you are going to take the vehicle on the road at all you should make sure its safe.




Edited by Mark W. - 30 Mar. 2020 at 10:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote General Eisenhower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar. 2020 at 11:51pm
Sure, I agree. But still what parts would I need to replace if I tore it apart. I don't want to take it apart and wait a week because I didn't order something 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar. 2020 at 12:29am
Originally posted by General Eisenhower General Eisenhower wrote:

So I am gonna dig into the kingpin bearings and see what's happening in there. 

Can anybody tell me the parts I'd need to replace, like seals etc before I do it, so I can order them, thanks.
 
Does anybody know if MB bumperettes would fit on a cj2a rear bumper?

  First off, you're gonna need a copy of the Service Manual For Universal Jeep Vehicles. You do already have one, right? You will need four bearing cones and four cups. Two on each side and the upper and lower are the same. You may need knuckle bearing shims, so get a set. You will probably need new knuckle (ball) seals. If you have not cleaned and re-packed the wheel bearings then this is a good time to do it and you'll need two new hub seals. If you don't pack them, you'll still need two seals. If it has been a long time since this has been done, you may need new bearings (cones and cups). Inner and outer are the same, two per side. If one is bad, replace them both. You'll probably find that Bubba has used a chisel to loosen/tighten the wheel bearing nuts, so you'll need two new sets. You'll also need a proper socket so you will not become Bubba. When you go to disconnect the tie rod ends, you may find that they are worn, or you may destroy them getting them loose. If one is bad, replace all 4. You will need an ample supply of the lube of your choice, be it chassis grease, corn head grease, CV joint grease, your favorite "knuckle pudding" recipe, or whatever. You may not be able to get the "S" brake lines loose from the hose and/or the wheel cylinder without damaging them, so you may need them. When you pull the hubs/drums off, you may find that the brake shoes are worn out or soaked with oil/grease or brake fluid. If you replace the shoes, replace the wheel cylinders too. Then when this is all done, you can check the rear brakes and we'll start a new list.
  So, you see, it can go on and on. Before you're done, you'll probably have the back seat out (old mechanic's joke). If you want to hope for the best and order the bare minimum that you will surely need, I would say bearings, shims, knuckle seals, hub seals, lube. And the Service Manual.
  Keep us posted, let us know how it goes, so I can say "Wha'd I say?" (another old mechanic's joke).
  BW

  Oh, yeah, the MB bumperettes will fit, but you'll need to drill some holes and get rid of the ag hitch if you have one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeepsterjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar. 2020 at 1:39am
Originally posted by Bruce W Bruce W wrote:

Originally posted by General Eisenhower General Eisenhower wrote:

So I am gonna dig into the kingpin bearings and see what's happening in there. 

Can anybody tell me the parts I'd need to replace, like seals etc before I do it, so I can order them, thanks.
 
Does anybody know if MB bumperettes would fit on a cj2a rear bumper?

  First off, you're gonna need a copy of the Service Manual For Universal Jeep Vehicles. You do already have one, right? You will need four bearing cones and four cups. Two on each side and the upper and lower are the same. You may need knuckle bearing shims, so get a set. You will probably need new knuckle (ball) seals. If you have not cleaned and re-packed the wheel bearings then this is a good time to do it and you'll need two new hub seals. If you don't pack them, you'll still need two seals. If it has been a long time since this has been done, you may need new bearings (cones and cups). Inner and outer are the same, two per side. If one is bad, replace them both. You'll probably find that Bubba has used a chisel to loosen/tighten the wheel bearing nuts, so you'll need two new sets. You'll also need a proper socket so you will not become Bubba. When you go to disconnect the tie rod ends, you may find that they are worn, or you may destroy them getting them loose. If one is bad, replace all 4. You will need an ample supply of the lube of your choice, be it chassis grease, corn head grease, CV joint grease, your favorite "knuckle pudding" recipe, or whatever. You may not be able to get the "S" brake lines loose from the hose and/or the wheel cylinder without damaging them, so you may need them. When you pull the hubs/drums off, you may find that the brake shoes are worn out or soaked with oil/grease or brake fluid. If you replace the shoes, replace the wheel cylinders too. Then when this is all done, you can check the rear brakes and we'll start a new list.
  So, you see, it can go on and on. Before you're done, you'll probably have the back seat out (old mechanic's joke). If you want to hope for the best and order the bare minimum that you will surely need, I would say bearings, shims, knuckle seals, hub seals, lube. And the Service Manual.
  Keep us posted, let us know how it goes, so I can say "Wha'd I say?" (another old mechanic's joke).
  BW

  Oh, yeah, the MB bumperettes will fit, but you'll need to drill some holes and get rid of the ag hitch if you have one.

I agree with Bruce and Mark. Replacing bearings and seals is darn cheap insurance.  Do check the bell crank as well.   I have experienced the death wobble in more than one 2A and had the steering go out twice. Also experienced the brakes going out twice.  This is why I am going to a D-30 NT diff with Saginaw steering and disc brakes with dual M/C.   
Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar. 2020 at 5:25am
Originally posted by General Eisenhower General Eisenhower wrote:

Sure, I agree. But still what parts would I need to replace if I tore it apart. I don't want to take it apart and wait a week because I didn't order something 

Lol... order "everything" LOL

70yo jeeps are great, but they're 70yo.  They come to us generally from many different POs, uses, levels of neglect and maintenance.... most have no baseline.  Most people I know don't think twice about getting a new ride and changing all the fluids.  It's investigatory, it's a starting point... it's a baseline.  You know where you are.

Death wobble is a tough one to diagnose because there can be so many contributing factors, sometimes a single cause, most times not.  I'm not suggesting you need to rebuild everything from the horn button to the driven plates, but my advice is to rebuild things you have no history on, and to do it in such a way that you aren't disassembling stuff you just took apart to try the next thing (don't replace wheel bearings only to be doing king pins a week later).  Order everything you need to rebuild a knuckle and establish a baseline where you know it's good.  If you're going to redo the bellcrank, get the kit for the draglink too, and so on.  Tie rod ends, do them all.

Yes, you'll maybe spend a little more in parts, but that'll come back to you ten fold in saved time... and baseline.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar. 2020 at 7:27am
Put a block of wood next to a front wheel jacked up until clear of the floor and spin the wheel with your hand and watch the run out. A wobbly/bent wheel will sure start the death wobble even if all the bearings are new. Put the wobbly one on the rear or spare mount. 

All the above is correct. When you bolt on the caps for the knuckle bearings, pay attention to the two longer bolts that go through the hose brush guards. If the bolt goes through too far it wrecks your brand new expensive knuckle bearing cages. Wink

As BW said, some bozo most likely used a chisel on your outer bearing hex nuts. New ones with a correct socket to tighten is a pleasure. The nut sets with new washers are cheap. Welcome to the Knuckle party! Oilly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote General Eisenhower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar. 2020 at 9:11am
Ok so I do have a manuel, hard copy infact! I was hoping for the bare minimum of things I'd need. I will keep y'all posted when I get to it. While some have gone unemployed my warehouse has shifted into maximum overdrive and I'm on standby with the guard.

Know a time frame so I can kinda plan on a window to work on it?Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar. 2020 at 9:29am
Originally posted by cpt logger cpt logger wrote:

Steve, I think that you posted about the bumperettes in the wrong thread.?!


Not really.....the General just asked two posts above Stev's answer whether anybody knew if they would fit..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Michaeltru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar. 2020 at 10:39am
I wonder if more of a description of the symptoms of your “death wobble” might be helpful. What speed does it happen?  You say the steering wheel doesn’t move cause you’re holding it but the wheels move thru their turning radius?  I’ve not experienced the death wobble or shimmy without the steering wheel shaking. Thanks
Mike in AZ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote General Eisenhower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar. 2020 at 12:56pm
So there is no speed at which it starts, just hits a bump, usually I'm going around 15 to 25 just to keep it safe. But it's a bump that I can roll over and it starts the wobble. The wheel doesn't move much when I'm holding it, but I feel the vibration of it fighting a little 
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