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Difference between CJ2/3A spring brackets and CJ5

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Ryan_289 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 9:44am
What is the difference between the spring pivot brackets.  I need to replace some of the spring brackets on my 3A frame I'm building my trail jeep on.  I know the earlier style is greaseable and the later style is not.  The reason I ask, I think between the 69 and 71 CJ5 frames I have, I could get the non greaseable brackets off of them and save some $.  I'm using H shackles so I know the non threaded brackets will be fine, just wasn't sure about the pivot brackets.

For a trail rig, which style is better? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 9:55am
Your first question is about the pivot brackets, then you mention the shackle brackets. These are two different things.

The "H" shackles used on CJ5 will fit the hanger brackets used for a CJ2A/3A, the spring bushing is the only thing different.

I would use the greaseable pivot bolts, and if the "brackets" are worn out I would use new ones. 

The same brackets were used from MB through CJ3B, and a pair of the pivot brackets only costs $26.50.

http://quartertonparts.com/product/spring-hanger-bracket-for-bolt-pair-a500/ 

IMHO the money saved is not worth the effort involved to remove old spring hangers from one frame and install them on another frame when you can simply buy a new set and put everything back new.

The original hangers were not threaded, they just look that way after years of a threaded bushing rocking back and forth inside them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 10:09am
If money is an issue, I think I have some new hanger brackets left over from the rehab of the CJ2A I have. I had a full set for all four springs, but only needed to replace the shackle hangers on the front, and the other Jeep project I have doesn't need them. 

Think I have two pairs of the pivot bolt brackets which are same front or rear, and one pair of shackle brackets. These are reproduction, but are good quality. If you want them PM me and I will make you a fair deal. 

The originals are attached using two rivets and four welds to the frame. I don't have equipment to buck 3/8" rivets, so I attach new ones with grade 8 bolts and weld the brackets to the frame same as they were. I usually tack the nuts on the bolt to the bolt and frame while I have the welder going.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ryan_289 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 10:30am
Ill shoot you a PM.  

I replaced all 8 spring brackets on the 2A I restored.  I did the same thing you did with the grade 8 bolts instead of rivets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 10:31am
Originally posted by Oldpappy Oldpappy wrote:

Your first question is about the pivot brackets, then you mention the shackle brackets. These are two different things.

The "H" shackles used on CJ5 will fit the hanger brackets used for a CJ2A/3A, the spring bushing is the only thing different.

I would use the greaseable pivot bolts, and if the "brackets" are worn out I would use new ones. 

The same brackets were used from MB through CJ3B, and a pair of the pivot brackets only costs $26.50.

http://quartertonparts.com/product/spring-hanger-bracket-for-bolt-pair-a500/ 

IMHO the money saved is not worth the effort involved to remove old spring hangers from one frame and install them on another frame when you can simply buy a new set and put everything back new.

The original hangers were not threaded, they just look that way after years of a threaded bushing rocking back and forth inside them. 

The trouble with those replacement hangers is that they are JUNK compared to the originals.  The stock spring hangers have 1/4" wall material.  The replacements are 3/16".  And in the set I ended up with, the pivot bolt bore was not in any way perpendicular to the mounting holes.  Again JUNK.  I would be looking for some NOS but if I couldn't go the route, I would reuse originals.  Those replacements I had ended up in the scrap bin.  Probably went to china where they were turned into more junk.

1955 3B: 441sbc,AGE 4 speed transmission, Teralow D18w/Warn OD, 4.11:1 D44's/ARB's, glass tub & fenders, aluminum hood/grill, 8274, York OBA, Premier Power Welder; 67 CJ5: 225,T86AA, D18, 4.88's, OD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 11:21am
All shackled brackets were threaded prior to about 1957.
Yes even the early cj5 were threaded.
There are RH and LH threads on most Jeeps but not all.
Some late 3B’s went to all RH threaded shackles or else the “H” type.
Unthreaded shackle brackets came into use intermittent on late model cj3b.
After that all were untreaded which means that conventional “H” type shackles are used.

The 1945-1975 CJ Spring pivot brackets are all the same excepting military.
I agree with John concerning quality.
I would much rather rebuild a worn bracket than buy a new aftermarket.  A rebuilt bracket can be superior to the original if hard facing rod is used.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 12:21pm
Oldtime,

I have read enough of your posts to know you know a lot more than I do about stuff like this, and I appreciate the information you provide, and will take it as gospel.

I have always been a bit puzzled about whether the original hangers themselves were threaded or whether the apparent threads were the result of wear.  

I have found them threaded and not threaded. So, it has been a point of interest for me.

After reading through a lengthy thread on another forum, with a lot of responders with more experience than I have, I became convinced the originals were not threaded when new, and the appearance of threads in old ones was from wear. I could believe this because on most of the Jeeps I have owned these hangers have been so worn out it was hard to tell which may have been true, but one set of replacements I bought were clearly threaded on purpose and that made me wonder about it some more. 

Take a look at the rebuilt original hangers, and Bubba engineered "H" shackles I found on the 47 CJ2A I have. It was rather creative use of 3/4" water pipe, mis-matched pieces of bar stock and stove bolts, but the welding looked like someone had thrown molten metal from 3 feet away. Wink

I replaced this mess of course, and the replacement hangers I used seem to be quality made and are as thick as the originals they replaced.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 12:28pm
Same Jeep after replacing that junk, though not a good picture of the hangers, and I have since also replaced the creative disc brake conversion probably done by the same jackleg who made those shackles, at least done with the same level of quality. Anyone want a heavy bumper already cut for a winch cable can have that dandy handcrafted piece of art if they come get it out of my scrap pile, as I also replaced that.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 1:01pm
Oldpappy,
Thanks for the compliment but in truth very little of the info I provide is ever mine.
My opinions and experience alone are mine and most all else is the sole authority of Willys Overland, Willys Motors Inc. Kaiser Jeep and AMC Jeep Corporation.
It was their product and they alone deserve all praise and complaint.

I have a 2+ foot tall stack of original Jeep publications 1945 -1973 (excluding military) that are my sole means of reference.
My main interest is all of the cj series.
The cj had always been in a state of change mostly considered as a progression. Yet not all changes were actual progress. I study the publications to determine what, why and when changes occurred.

The various publications clearly stipulate RH and LH threaded frame shackle brackets depending upon model and vintage of application.
I can supply specific references, part numbers and timelines in cases were these details may be of benefit.

Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 4:21pm
The hangers I used on the Jeep in the picture were indeed threaded during manufacture.

The driver side was LH thread, and the passenger side RH thread. They were reproduction hangers so I could not be sure this feature was a match to originals. 

The information you provided explains why I have found originals with, and without threads. I couldn't tell you which were from what Jeep as I have had several CJ2As, one M38, and one CJ3B over the years. 

I have worked in IT for 45 years, and one thing I have told every young programmer I have trained is "You won't ever know everything, and that is fine as long as you know where to find out what you need to know".  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WKWillys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 7:18pm
That's great advice Oldpappy!
'48 CJ2a "Snakeskin"
'50 M38 "Thunder from Heaven"
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'48 T3c
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 9:48pm
  Well,

My copy of the Parts List for Jeep Models CJ-2A and 3A copyright 1949, shows one part number for:
  GROUP 27-03, Part No. A-544 BRACKET, front and rear spring shackle assembly. Quan. Req'd. 4
The A-XXX part number indicates that it was a part that was carried over from the MB. New CJ2-A parts got a 5-digit, numbers only, part number. All four are the same, no R or L.

The same publication shows:
  Group 27-03, Part No. A-513, Bolt, "U", spring shackle, left hand thread (1 used front end of left front spring, 1 used rear end of right rear spring)   Quan. Req'd. 2
  Group 27-03, Part No. A-514, Bolt, "U", spring shackle, right hand thread (1 used front end of right front spring, 1 used rear end of left rear spring) Quan. Req'd. 2
(The part that we refer to as a "shackle", they call a "U" bolt. The part I call a "U" bolt, they call a "clip". I'll defer to the parts book or Service Manual.)

The Service Manual for Universal Jeep Vehicles, copyright 1965, says in Paragraph S-6, page 246:
  "On Models CJ-2A, CJ-3A, CJ-3B, CJ5, and CJ6, six bushings are used with right-hand threads and two with left-hand threads. The right-hand threaded bushings have plain hexagon heads. The left-hand bushings have a groove around the heads. The two left-hand threaded U-shackles....are used at the left front spring and the right rear spring with the left-hand threaded end DOWN at the spring eye." (Not in the bracket) "The left-hand threaded parts have been cancelled in the production of Models DJ-3A, CJ-3B, CJ-5 and CJ6. All later production vehicles, up to early 1957, use all right-hand threaded parts." (Here's another of those cases where the parts book and the Service Manual have different names for the same part.)
  It goes on to say: "When replacing shackles and bushings on these vehicles, examine the parts carefully for parts of the same type removed must be reinstalled. A right-hand threaded bushing cannot be installed satisfactorily after one having left-hand threads has once been installed."

  So the spring shackle brackets are not left-hand- or right-hand-threaded, all four are the same. In fact, I doubt that they are (were) threaded at all until the shackle bushing was driven into them, cutting (or swaging) their own threads. When I was a front-end tech in a Chevrolet garage, I saw a lot of front-end parts (A-arms, etc, and not Chevrolet only) that took a threaded ball joint or bushing, but had no threads themselves until the joint or bushing was driven into them. This, of course, makes them fit very tightly.

  I, too, have great respect and admiration for Oldtime's knowledge and experience, and if I had the resources he has, these posts would take three times as long to type and twice as long to read. Wink
BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan. 2021 at 11:52pm
Thanks for posting Bruce.
If I may, let me try and correct what I had posted earlier.
I was in too much of a rush and knew that my post was misleading.  Better off saying nothing than to provide misleading text. I apologize for mixing in the R/L terms the way I had.

First off I will say....
There exists a problem with the automotive industry because no governing body has ever standardized automotive terms.
For this reason various manufacturers have used their own sometimes unique terminology.
Several years back I attempted to standardize the use of certain automotive terms in order to reduce confusion.

At times I don’t like the terminology Jeep has used to identify component parts but still I try always to use their chosen terminology regardless.
And so when on the early Jeep forums I prefer to speak early Jeep.

Jeep used 5 different spring brackets on the CJ models alone from 1945-1971.

“Pivot bracket” A500 was used on all the 80” wheelbase 1945-1965.
It was never used on cj5/6 because they used
“pivot bracket” 806910 from 1955-1971.

“Threaded shackle bracket” A544 was used on all cj’s till 1957.
After that cj5/6 used threaded shackle bracket 805514.

The other bracket noted is the “unthreaded shackle bracket” which apparently was used on various cj’s.
The part number of 645966 suggest it goes back to  very early cj2a usage.
It’s use apparently was intermittent.
From observations I believe it finally became  standard during the mid 1960’s. 
All 13 or so jeeps I have owned had the threaded shackle brackets.

As for the shackles themselves Jeep referred to them as either the “U” type spring shackle or U-shackles.

They also used what they termed as the “closed type shackle” and have also referred to it as a conventional type shackle. The special rubber bushing itself was called a “silent bloc”.

Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan. 2021 at 12:14am
Okay, so what this says to me is we are all right to some extent, as there is no comprehensive or correct answer to the puzzle. 

At least the different documents explain the confusion I have had from what I have found on these old Jeeps. I have seen them threaded, and not threaded, and I have seen that in reproduction as well as original hardware. 

Reminds me of what a famous Baptist pastor once said "If both are in the Bible, both must be true". 

The bottom line, or at least the way I see it, is simply this. If your hanger bracket is threaded make sure you use the corresponding shackle bushing. In other words, use the LH threaded shackle bushing in the front left, or rear right hanger. If your hanger bracket is not threaded, it probably doesn't matter much which shackles you use.

This LH/RH thread business whether it be with the spring shackles or wheel studs is an old school idea that didn't really catch on anyway. I know of no modern vehicle having wheel studs with RH threads on one side and LH on the other. I have seen that only on old iron such as Jeeps, Ramblers, and a very few others, but many of the other old cars from the same era didn't have that arrangement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan. 2021 at 2:12am
Oldpappy said: "If your hanger bracket is threaded make sure you use the corresponding shackle bushing. In other words, use the LH threaded shackle bushing in the front left, or rear right hanger."

 Yes, and No. The left-hand-threaded shackle is only left-handed on one end. The other end, or side, is right-hand. The left-hand-threaded end goes in the SPRING EYE. So the bracket always gets a right-hand-threaded bushing.

  The reason, as I understand it, for the left-hand-threaded bushing on the left front and right rear spring, is that the wrap of the spring can act sort of like a "chinese finger trap", and hold the bushing while rotating one way and slipping on it the other way. If this is true, the left front and right rear springs would tend to loosen the bushing in normal operation if the bushing was right-hand threaded. With left-hand threads, the spring holds the bushing from loosening. Is this necessary? I don't know. The same goes for left-hand-threaded lug nuts, which we have found to not be necessary. That idea may have been a holdover from an earlier time when wheel centers were made differently, and wheels may have been more flexible, or something. Willys-Overland engineers evidently thought left-handed bushings were necessary or they would not have spent the money to design and build another part nearly the same as the one on the other side. They must have eventually decided they were not necessary, as they deleted them from production before the coming of the rubber, "silent-bloc" bushing.

  Here, we are talking about, mostly, 1945-1949 CJ2-A's which do have the left-hand-threaded bushings on the left front and right rear, and I feel it's important for us to leave the correct information in this thread for future readers to find.

  Just a note: Big trucks continued to use left-hand-threaded lug nuts on the left side as long as the wheels were lug-piloted. Into the Nineties, I believe. I think the left-handed nuts went away when the wheels became hub-piloted and the nuts became flat, no longer tapered. 
BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan. 2021 at 5:39am
My only reference concerning why the unthreaded bracket existed points directly to 1957-1959 frame production of the cj3b.

Same as previous frame except #A544 threaded shackle brackets are replaced by #645966 unthreaded shackle bracket. In early 1957 #A513 and #A514 "U" type shackles became unobtainable (the serial number breaking points cannot be given). Conventional type shackles and steel-backed rubber type (silent bloc) bushings were placed into production.

The books remain unclear as to wether or not unthreaded shackles were used prior to 1957 but as I stated the parts numbering suggest they may have existed anytime after the mb/gpw’s.

In 1963 Willys Motors decided that the Left threaded shackle was no longer of benefit and omitted use of the left hand “u type shackles”.

As to reasoning behind LH lug nuts; that most definitely originated during the days of buckboard wagons where the left axle nut must be LH threaded.
Jeep ceased using LH lugnuts in 1966 production.

Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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