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JeepSaffer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Distributor rebuild questions
    Posted: 18 Jan. 2018 at 8:15am
I have a few distributor rebuild questions I'm hoping I can get answers for. I've been battling to find definitive info on this stuff.

Q1: Are parts from IAD series distributors generally interchangeable between IAD models? ie Will a cam and stop plate from an IAD 4008 fit an IAD 4041?

Q2: Which distributors used the single spring under the cam and stop plate, that stops the weights rotating out at idle? Specifically, was this spring used on the IAD 4041? I'm not talking about the 2 springs that connect directly to the weights, I'm talking about the single thin-wire spring that goes under the cam and stop plate... Some exploded diagrammes show it, some don't. The exploded diagrammes are generally labelled "Typical distributor" and do not refer to specific model numbers.

Q3: Can any distributor be converted from 6V to 12V simply by changing the condenser? ie are the cap, rotor, points all independent of voltage?

Thank you,

Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2018 at 8:38am
Cap, rotor, & points will be the same
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2018 at 1:24pm
Here are two pics from my IAD 4008a out of my"3B" during a 12volt Hot-Spark ignition install, compare them to your 4041 plate. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2018 at 1:26pm
pic #2  looking at the http://www.willysdistributors.com/id5.html  website  they offer plates for the IAD but not 4008 specific, so a call to them may get your answer.




Edited by jeeper50 - 18 Jan. 2018 at 1:36pm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2018 at 2:20pm
Yup, the points plate I think will work. Looks identical. I am not sure if the "cam and stop plate" will. This (I think) is the name for the integrated part underneath the points plate that contains the cam and the plate with the two slots that controls how far the weights can ride out before they are stopped at the end of the slots. 

I think that this "cam and stop plate" will probably fit the drive shaft of both models, however the length of the slots obviously controls how far the weights can fly out and therefore controls the timing advance of the distributor... I am wary of swapping parts simply because they fit, when the reality might be that the timing advance may be completely out of spec.

My REAL issue is that I am trying to rebuild an IAD 4041 rather than just throw it away. The "cam and stop plate" is badly rusted. I have posted a "Wanted to Buy" for parts on this site - no takers so far. I have spoken to Kurt at Willys Distributors, and he has no parts to help me. I have located an IAD 4008, and I either use it for parts for the IAD 4041, OR I scrap the 4041 rebuild and concentrate on the 4008. Either way it would be good to know which parts (if any) are interchangeable between these two models. 

There seems to be a real lack of rebuild info out there for dizzys. If I ever figure some of this stuff out i'll try and write it up and post a "how to" in the correct place on the forum...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2018 at 2:32pm
Don't think the condenser cares if it is 12v or 6v.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2018 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by TERRY TERRY wrote:

Don't think the condenser cares if it is 12v or 6v.

OK, so as long as the coil is at the correct voltage, all good with the distributor? I didn't know that you could swap a distributor straight from a 6V system into a 12V system...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2018 at 3:40pm
Hopefully "oldtime" here on this forum will be able to answer the cam and stop plate question. you could pm him if you want.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan. 2018 at 4:03pm
Yes PM is good at time but I prefer to discuss tech questions on the forums so that info may be "searched".

Hope this answers some of your concerns..

Over the years Willys used either IGW, IAD, IAT and IAY type distributors.

The notably small sized IGW's are all very early vintage.

IAT types  are all vacuum advance models  and were only installed SW's and PU's and Industrial engine applications. 
Most IAT parts including the points do not interchange with any IAD or IAY.

The Autolite IAD's were commonly referred to "Dustproof" distributors.
The common IAD 4008 was superceded by the IAD 4041.
The !AD 4041 was the latest IAD which was used between 1955-1957.

The IAY's were the latest and greatest mechanical advance types. 
These began in 1958 as Autolite which became Prestolite in 1962.

The IAT, IAD and IAY use two springs only. 
Each spring is attached to one of the two flyweights. 

Most parts do not interchange between the various IGW IAT IAD or IAY series. 
Only a  few part will interchange between these different series.

Willys Autolite's were never 12 volts before the 1958 IAY series.
That said... all can easily be converted for 12 volt applications by testing of the condenser's capacity.
The  microfarads of resistance needs to be within proper specification for your specific coils output.
So one first needs to have a correct internal ballast coil along with a suitable condenser.

If you go here you can read how the IAD 4041 was different from preceding IAD 4008.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2018 at 4:14am
I have an IAD4008I (I think it's an 'I') and it has the little spring under the cam (?) plate.  Should it not be there? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2018 at 7:55am
Originally posted by Ol' Unreliable Ol' Unreliable wrote:

I have an IAD4008I (I think it's an 'I') .....  

The IAD 4008 (in various flavours) were fitted to various vehicles. This is what I have found so far:

 

CJ2A

CJ3A

CJ3B

CJ5

CJ6

DJ3A

IGW-4177-1

ü

 

 

 

 

 

IAD-4008

ü

ü

ü

 

 

 

IAD-4008-T

 

ü

 

 

 

 

IAD-4008-A

 

 

ü

 

 

 

IAD-4008-AT

 

 

ü

ü

 

 

IAD-4041

 

 

ü

ü

ü

 

IAY-4012

 

 

ü

ü

ü

ü

IAY-4401

 

 

ü

ü

ü

ü



So based upon the table, there is no "I" model. It is most likely an IAD-4008-T and it would originally have come from a CJ3A.


Originally posted by Ol' Unreliable Ol' Unreliable wrote:

.... and it has the little spring under the cam (?) plate.  Should it not be there?  

According to Oldtime, no. But according to Kurt of Willys Distributors, yes. I will post some further info on this topic in a short while!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2018 at 8:43am
Thanks Ken (Oldtime), you have provided some very useful information.

In my various research and hunt for information, I have also been emailing Kurt of Willys Distributors. He rebuilds these things for a living and must know them inside out. He has provided some very useful answers to my questions. I will relay these on here, as my goal is to get info out there on a topic for which I have found very little! Most answers are in agreement, but one is in disagreement.... it is not my intention to start an argument, but rather to get to the bottom of what is most likely correct!

So here we go:

On Distributor parts interchangeability:

In general, some parts can be interchanged and some parts cannot. Remember that some distributors were even made for clockwise rotation. These parts are obviously not interchangeable with CCW rotation distributors. However we know that all Willys 4 cylinder distributors were made for CCW rotation. Even then, the cam stop plate slots that the weights ride in had different lengths and even position of slots in the plate to control how far the weights moved out in different distributors, and hence the degree of advance in the timing. So even if a cam stop plate from one dizzy physically fits on the shaft of another, you can't assume it will provide the correct performance. 

Specifically between the IAD-4008 and the IAD-4041, Kurt has confirmed that the cam stop plate IS the same on these models and therefore IS interchangeable.

On which parts are 12V and 6V specific:

Oldtime, Kurt and Terry are all in agreement. Condensor, cap, rotor and points are all independent of voltage.

On which models use the thin wire spring under the cam plate and which don't:

Oldtime says that the IAT, IAD and IAY did NOT use this spring. He does not mention which models of distributor DID use it. 
Kurt disagrees and says that all of the Willys 4 cylinder distributors except for the IGW used the anti rattle spring on the cam stop plate. 

Note that Kurt calls it an anti-rattle spring. It's function seems to be to supply some tension to the  spring weights at low rpm so that the weights don't literally rattle around, which could cause variance in the advance and contribute to rough idling. I have seen a few references where folks say you should test with a screwdriver if the weight springs are loose, and if they are you should bend the attaching ears out slightly so that the springs are always under slight tension (or at least not loose), even at idle. So this appears to be another way of achieving exactly the same thing.

I do not know if the IAT, IAD and IAY ranges of distributors came out of the factory with this spring.
Was it a part frequently lost or taken off, and hence the "bend the ears" method was used instead?
Was it a part that frequently rusted or wore through the thin wire, hence not commonly found on old distributors?
Was the spring a part that was introduced later as a kind of "service replacement" to take care of rattling weights and rough idling, without having to bend the ears?

I don't know the answers to these questions. Maybe Oldtime can chime in again. I have also asked the same questions of Kurt and will let you know what he says.

In any case Ol' Unreliable, I would keep your anti-rattle spring in there for now. It certainly won't do any harm and is most likely helping to ensure a smooth idle.

Mike

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2018 at 4:31pm
Jeep Saffer,I certainly don't mind further questions but let me say that some of your understanding obviously remains in error.

For starters your chart should be adjusted as follows...

The model prefix information  is correct but... you have your suffix data all messed up.
The final suffix letter merely designates the year of manufacture and nothing else.

IGW 4177 fits standard on early CJ-2A
IAD 4008 fits standard  CJ-2A, CJ-3A and early CJ-3B  (originally called the dust proof)
IAD 4041 fits standard after 1954 CJ-3B, CJ-5 and CJ-6 
IAY 4012 fits standard after 1957 (this was the very first CJ distributor specifically set up as 12 volts)
IAY 4041 fits late 3B CJ5 and CJ-6 

With proper oil pump indexing any of these distributor models can be interchanged from 1941 through 1971 with L or F 134 engines.
IAT models may also be used if desired.

I repeat ... there is no spring located underneath the cam breaker stop plate !
In fact no spring could even fit into that space.

Yes there is a spring that is correctly referred to as the "anti rattle spring".
It's function is just that. 
It basically eliminates vibrations and excess motion at the base of the shaft where it enters the oil pump drive.
It is made from flat stock and fits at the bottom of the distributor shaft just above the "oil pump index tang".
All IAT IAD and IAY models have these anti rattle springs.

The anti rattle spring has no direct effect upon the mechanical advance flyweights. 
And yes the tabs on the cam breaker plates most often become bent outward over time.
The need to be re-bent just enough so that the flyweights will fully retract at idle rpm.
Excessively worn flyweight limiting slots on the breaker plate would be obvious.
Caution during re-assembly because the cam breaker plates can easily be re-assembled 180 degrees out of correct position.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan. 2018 at 3:08am
@JeepSaffer,

I should go out and look, but I'm beginning to "recall" that I have an IAD 4008A. 

@oldtime, If I had the technological capability (digital camera...) I'd take a pic of the spring and its location.  It fits around the shaft and goes under the cam piece (can't find the correct name for it).  Also, I have a copy of the manual for the MB/GPW and it says the distributor is an IAD 4008.  So it seems they were used before the CJ-2A.  FWIW...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan. 2018 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

Jeep Saffer,I certainly don't mind further questions but let me say that some of your understanding obviously remains in error.


I'm here to learn....

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

 

For starters your chart should be adjusted as follows...

The model prefix information  is correct but... you have your suffix data all messed up.

The final suffix letter merely designates the year of manufacture and nothing else.

I know that the distributor tags had the month and year of manufacture stamped onto them, but I didn't realise that this is what is written into the table. The info in my table I simply rearranged from page 154 of the Universal Service Manual to make it easier to read:


So you mean that there was no model IAD-4008-T or -A or -AT as such, but that the original IAD-4008 was used on CJ-3A's starting in 1962 which is what the T represents? And the identical IAD-4008 on CJ-3B's in 1968=A? The IAD-4008-AT used on CJ-3B's and CJ-5's is confusing because as far as I know they used numbers and letters for month and year, never two letters. Any ideas?


Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

I repeat ... there is no spring located underneath the cam breaker stop plate !

I presume you mean that there was no spring located underneath the cam breaker stop plate ON THE MODELS YOU MENTION, because there was seemingly a spring located on some models. It is shown in various exploded parts diagrammes and referenced in TM9-1825B:



In the parts listing it is Part L "Spring"

It is also referenced in TM9-1825B in another exploded parts diagramme and in the text where they call the same part an "anti-rattle spring" as part of their rebuild instructions.


Note they say "If anti-rattle spring is used......"

I am not sure if this is is a reference to the fact that not all distributor models had them, and the rebuild instructions cover various different models OR if this was an "optional" part that could be fitted if the rebuilder thought it a good idea. I'm thinking the former.... It would seem strange for the military to write a rebuild manual and then leave the installation of optional parts up to the individual.

So the question now becomes: We know that the anti-rattle spring exists and where it goes. Which distributors used it?


Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

In fact no spring could even fit into that space.


This I don't agree with. I have measured a clear 0.061" gap between the bottom of the cam stop plate on my IAD 4041 and the top of the centrifugal weights, and this is plenty space for the spring to ride in without interference either with the plate or with the weights.

Here it is installed:


The spring is clearly visible with clearance both above and below the wire.


Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

Yes there is a spring that is correctly referred to as the "anti rattle spring".

It's function is just that. 

It basically eliminates vibrations and excess motion at the base of the shaft where it enters the oil pump drive.

It is made from flat stock and fits at the bottom of the distributor shaft just above the "oil pump index tang".

All IAT IAD and IAY models have these anti rattle springs.

This I was not aware of, but is it indeed referenced in the parts list:

637615        SPRING, friction, distributor shaft................................1

Good to know! Do all the regular vendors sell it?

Thanks for all your comments and input so far!




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan. 2018 at 5:22am
Oh good, I don't need to go out and get a digital camera.  It would take me forever to learn how to use it anyway.  The spring "L" is indeed the one I mentioned.  Thanks for the illustration, JeepSaffer!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan. 2018 at 5:15pm
As far as I know the Autolite distributors were never actually marked with any of the suffixes that you provide from Service Manual data.
I'm not familiar with what those Service Manual suffixes mean.

What specific service manual are you using anyway ?
I have a two foot tall stack of them.
Every CJ publication from 1945 through 1972 
I'll take a look at them later and see if I can determine anything further.

The pic you show with lower spring wire appears to be the early Ford GPW / IGW type distributor.
That exploded view does not really apply to IAD IAT nor IAY.
The IAD IAT and IAY "anti rattle" spring is totally different and is located at the very bottom of the shaft.

Your original posts mentions that you are rebuilding a late IAD distributor.
Parts reference from an IGW is basically unimportant unless you hope to gain comprehensive knowledge concerning Autolite distributor progression over time.
But yes doing that certainly provides one with a much more advanced level of understanding
.
The Jeep itself has always and still remains in a constant state of change.
Yet not all change is true progress.
My particular interests begins with the developement (1941 LRV build stipulations) and continues until the end of the CJ era in 1985.
So yes noting any an all changes over time reveals an in depth understanding.
That said I see no practical adaptable  assemblies existing after 1979 CJ.





Edited by oldtime - 22 Jan. 2018 at 5:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan. 2018 at 11:26pm
My IAD 4008 had the referenced anti-rattle spring in place when I installed new advance springs last year.
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