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dual master cylinder fitment issue, need advice.
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Speedy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 June 2022 at 9:22pm
I have installed herms dual master cylinder bracket on my 1947 CJ2A it is for Disc Disc. running ford reverse steering also so don't have to worry about hitting steering box.
also purchased the banjo bolts knowing its a tight fit between the MC and bell housing.

the Kaiser Supersonic engine and bell housing is out of a Henry J (as far as I know?). my initial thoughts is that the bell housing differs from what is commonly used in the jeeps.

I mocked up the cylinder all bolts tight, its apparent that I will not be able to get the banjo fittings on the outlet closest to the bell housing.

I need advice on what to do next.

I am thinking of elongating the holes that bolt the master cylinder to the bracket, this will get me closer to the frame. but I don't think its enough. 

and I don't believe shifting the power pack over is an option? 




Edited by Speedy - 22 June 2022 at 8:02am
- Mike
47 CJ2A - Warn OD, Ramsey PT1-J/Koenig 100,Arctic top,Dana 44 30 spline full float with disc's,Dana 30 with discs, 2.5 lift, Saginaw power steering, dual master cylinder
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Speedy View Drop Down
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Points: 531 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2022 at 9:23pm
second photo
- Mike
47 CJ2A - Warn OD, Ramsey PT1-J/Koenig 100,Arctic top,Dana 44 30 spline full float with disc's,Dana 30 with discs, 2.5 lift, Saginaw power steering, dual master cylinder
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Nick_ View Drop Down
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Points: 1132 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2022 at 12:48am
I can't speak for the master shown in your photos, but can share my experiences with the disc/disc style he used to sell. It's Centric 13063011 which is for an AMC Gremlin (and truly designed for a disc/drum...).

Herm's bracket didn't even allow for full pushrod pedal travel, so you'll find the brakes never really build adequate pressure. I had to space it so far forward that the master cylinder hit the steering box. It's worth checking if your pushrod has full pedal travel. Either way, you can shove the master forward a few inches with spacers, then add some reinforcement to keep it from bending downwards when pushing the brake pedal.

By the way, the banjo bolts will leak even if you overtighten them. I've read about others heating up the copper washers before install but haven't tried it myself.
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Hi Nick, 

I am running ford reverse steering so I should be able to move everything forward with no interference.

I could move the entire mounting bracket and drill new holes. the support to the bell crank I could make a new one

wonder how I know how much stroke, maybe push the MC piston in and measure.
- Mike
47 CJ2A - Warn OD, Ramsey PT1-J/Koenig 100,Arctic top,Dana 44 30 spline full float with disc's,Dana 30 with discs, 2.5 lift, Saginaw power steering, dual master cylinder
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Points: 438 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2022 at 8:09am
“ By the way, the banjo bolts will leak even if you overtighten them. I've read about others heating up the copper washers before install but haven't tried it myself.”

I wouldn’t think just heating a copper washer would be enough. Heated to dull red and quenched in water would soften it nicely if too hard to seal properly. 
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Points: 531 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2022 at 8:31am
I measured the bolt spacing on the bracket quickly, it looks to be 3'' so if I drill another set of holes towards the front of the frame that might get me the space I need. I will look into this.

won't rush into anything as I appreciate all input.

Jeff that sounds right on the copper, annealing 
- Mike
47 CJ2A - Warn OD, Ramsey PT1-J/Koenig 100,Arctic top,Dana 44 30 spline full float with disc's,Dana 30 with discs, 2.5 lift, Saginaw power steering, dual master cylinder
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Points: 531 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2022 at 3:26pm
I would also like to add, if any other suggestion for known master cylinders that work for disc / disc please let me know. (wilwood comes to mind)

or an entire new kit.

i am eager to get this completed as its slightly holding me back.
- Mike
47 CJ2A - Warn OD, Ramsey PT1-J/Koenig 100,Arctic top,Dana 44 30 spline full float with disc's,Dana 30 with discs, 2.5 lift, Saginaw power steering, dual master cylinder
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Points: 4304 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berettajeep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2022 at 6:38pm
I bought the KW dual cylinder kit 10 years ago, ended up grinding away part of the bellhousing and engine block to have clearance.  Not ideal but I was in a hurry to assemble the Jeep. I'd rather not grind away the block I'm putting in so following this thread.
Dennis
'47 CJ2A 101823
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Originally posted by Speedy Speedy wrote:

I would also like to add, if any other suggestion for known master cylinders that work for disc / disc please let me know. (wilwood comes to mind)

or an entire new kit.

i am eager to get this completed as its slightly holding me back.

There have been some talks on Facebook regarding a different master setup. There was a Wilwood master that seemed to work great with Brennan's disc brake kit. As for the Chevy calipers which require more fluid volume, I'm not quite sure what will work. 

If we find a better solution, I will also switch over my setup as I'm currently on the 3rd AMC master cylinder. For some reason they don't last in mud/water, even after a single day of wheeling. I believe it's due to the poor lid design. A few weeks ago I spent one day wheeling in some mud/water, and sure enough my brakes are dragging again and overheating the hubs.

As much as I enjoy the originality of keeping the master on the frame rail, hanging pedals are truly the way to go. Especially for keeping engine swap options open.
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I recently switched from a CJ-5 dual master to an early 80's Corolla master with remote reservoirs. It fits better (I had the same bellhousing clearance issue) and stops better. I'm running discs up from and 11" drums in the rear. 
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I'm using the Wilwood (part # 260-7563) setup like in the link below. I have a D30 with factory disc brakes up front and the Fusion disc brakes on the flanged D44 in the rear. I ran this setup this year at EJS and the Willys Rush. I have put around 2500 miles on this setup now and I like it really well.

https://www.amazon.com/Wilwood-260-7563-auto-part/dp/B002G37IBS/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3K2XEIAJ8HZLG&keywords=wilwood+master+cylinder+260-7563&qid=1656095594&s=automotive&sprefix=wilwood+master+cylinder+260-7563%2Cautomotive%2C96&sr=1-3
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swing pedals and be done with it.  Just my opinion. 
Jim
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Originally posted by jeepsterjim jeepsterjim wrote:

swing pedals and be done with it.  Just my opinion. 


In hindsight I wish I'd gone with swinging pedals...
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Originally posted by GeorgiaFlattie GeorgiaFlattie wrote:

Originally posted by jeepsterjim jeepsterjim wrote:

swing pedals and be done with it.  Just my opinion. 


In hindsight I wish I'd gone with swinging pedals...

I bought all new clutch/brake linkage and a Wildwood dual M/C with the mounting bracket about 3 years ago. Installed the stuff and then came to the conclusion why am I messing with this old style system when I could simply upgrade to swing pedals and be done with all that linkage and M/C set up. Makes room for a V-6/V-8 conversion to. 
Jim
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I am not opposed to swinging pedals. 
the wilwood https://amzn.to/3QTQn4O seems like the safe bet for the stock pedals.

I will make a separate thread for swinging pedals as I am interested, but lets keep this one to master cylinders for the Herm setup. if I can keep the Dana 30 stock disc and chevy disc rear with this setup i would try.

the swinging pedal setup question has been posted here. (possibly for future reference)
https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/topic51241_post523196.html#523196


Edited by Speedy - 26 June 2022 at 7:01pm
- Mike
47 CJ2A - Warn OD, Ramsey PT1-J/Koenig 100,Arctic top,Dana 44 30 spline full float with disc's,Dana 30 with discs, 2.5 lift, Saginaw power steering, dual master cylinder
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The only downside to Wilwood products is availability if something fails. If you're in Moab for a week and your MC fails on the first day you're going to be waiting awhile for a replacement while you have a better chance of a replacement being on the shelf if you use something from a production vehicle.
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Points: 531 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2022 at 4:06pm
I do agree with this, carrying a rebuild kit for wilwood might be a must.
I am also in Canada so its even harder to get them fast.

still not giving up on this MC

okay update. if I move the master cylinder bracket forward one bolt hole shown in the attached pictures it appears it might work out.  bolt centre to bolt centre is 1'' and 7/8 that it would be moved forward. this is similar to Nick saying he moved his 2'' so its not far off. but is that enough?

also, the welded nut in the frame (I can't remember what its for) interferes with the bracket, I might be able to clearance the bracket or nock out this welded nut if its not needed have to check into it.

any issues with exhaust?

again running ford reverse steering so I might be fine

fitting just cleared the bell housing dowel bolt head. might not be able to use the banjo bolt but a standard fitting probably will fit fine

I am also aware the support bracket will no longer reach the clutch / brake pivot, but I can make something up myself to span the new distance.




Edited by Speedy - 27 June 2022 at 4:49pm
- Mike
47 CJ2A - Warn OD, Ramsey PT1-J/Koenig 100,Arctic top,Dana 44 30 spline full float with disc's,Dana 30 with discs, 2.5 lift, Saginaw power steering, dual master cylinder
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second 
- Mike
47 CJ2A - Warn OD, Ramsey PT1-J/Koenig 100,Arctic top,Dana 44 30 spline full float with disc's,Dana 30 with discs, 2.5 lift, Saginaw power steering, dual master cylinder
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