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tufcj2a View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tufcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 3:59pm
Yes, it is an interesting set up. I wasn't sure how to handle my turn signals , parkingpark brakes in the rear. Particularly with only a two post bulb.  I looked around at a few different options. And this Relay system came up over and over again on various sites. I had never seen it prior, but of course I had always gone with a pre-built harness.

Since I only have 6 colors of wire, I'm using a shrink wrap tubing as well; put different color bands on the solid color wire.  I'm also of course shrink wrapping each connection.

For labeling I'm using the typical brother label maker labels. I have both sides labeled as well as a chart with the color codes.

Good Insight on the fuse. You are correct, I should be less concerned regarding the rating as any sort of short should easily pop a fuse.

Thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 4:20pm
Thomas, please read my post just before yours. I was writing at the same time you were.

IMHO, Mike gave you some very bad advise. Keep using the recommended circuit protection. You do not want a wiring fire.

IHTH, Matt W.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tufcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 4:26pm
I agree. I will use correct fuses. I was just under-rating them based on a pre calculation. Once I have everything installed. I will use a meter to see the draw and then add maybe 20%. What I had listed originally was my best guess with a 10% margin. I can go higher than that as I use 14 and 10 gauge wire across the entire system.  The recommended for lights is 30 amps, I was going to use 20 since the draw is 18.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 7:28pm
Hi Matt, we agree on many points about wiring and fuses.  I agree that fuses are there to protect against a wire fire due to a short.  I realize that my example used 50% more load as my fuse size for a particular circuit.  I'd like to clarify that that is my upper limit for determining what fuse to use in a circuit.  I typically use something around 30% for sizing fuses.  But to understand why I would use up to 50% load one has to look at the capacity of the wires in that circuit.  I've attached the wire gauge selection table that I use when building electrical features.  It addresses both 6v and 12v loads. 



Earlier I recommended using 14 and 16 gauge wires in a 6V system.  Even for wiring in a single light, a very light load (pun intended).  As you can see from the graph, even 18 gauge wire can handle quite a load for short distances.  When I build a circuit I tend to use larger than necessary wire to reduce resistance.  That allows me to fuse that circuit up to 50% larger than the load, and still remain safely within the capacity of the wire (gauge and length) to carry the load.  As an engineer who's built an electric Jeep, I tend to use larger wire gauges to reduce resistance and compensate for possible losses in connections.  Have I successfully explained my perspective on designing circuits Matt?  I appreciate your concern about not having a fire, and share that concern.  That's why I like to use larger wire.  
M38Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spinnas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2018 at 9:30pm
Sure a circuit can be fused too high. But unless the wire isn’t rated at that amperage as Mike’s chart shows some info, you aren’t really hurting anything other than maybe the “device”. Which if it draws too much it’s damaged anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 4:40am
Mike, If you are using the larger diameter wire, which is the lower numbered wire size, I agree you will be fine. 

You have the 12 volt system highlighted. However, Thomas is running a six volt system. IMHO, for the head lights, one should use at least 10 gauge wire. Unless Thomas is using relays that are not shown on his diagram, the entire circuit for the head lights from the battery to the elements is 10-15 feet. Now guessing that the high beam pulls 15 amps, 6 volt at 15', per your fine chart, means using 10 gauge wire. Which is what I use.

The headlights & the horn are the circuits that I would look hard at using relays because of their high current draw. This way a shorter high amp draw wire runs from the battery to the relay, which is close to the head lights, then on to the head lights. This wire should run about 4 ' long. Then the 15' could use 14 or 16 gauge wire.

Except the heater motor, the lower amp circuits could get by with the 14 & 16 gauge wire. The heater will require 14 or 12 gauge. Like you suggested, I would use the larger, 12 gauge.

BTW, your chart agrees with the chart in my aircraft standards handbook.

If I am out your way this summer & can find you at home, could I gaze at your Elecro-Willys? That is some contraption! I read that entire thread with joy. I confess that I have not read the entire thread on the Alaska trip. I get very busy in the summertime.

I do not know whether to be impressed with your Engineering degree, or should I class you with those "clueless educated idiots" that most of us mechanics cuss on a daily basis. Hmmm... I will choose to be impressed, as you are obviously at heart, a fabricator-mechanic.

See you then, Matt W.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2018 at 1:00pm
Matt, you are welcome to visit here anytime you can come this way.  Caution, we do have some periods of weeks when we'll be gone Jeeping in other places.  But if we're here, I'd be happy to give you a chance to drive Electro-Willys.  The Alaska Trip was bitter-sweet.  I'll show you why when you visit. 

On your example from my table for using 10 gauge for the headlights, I think you've over estimated the distance you need for wire from the light switch to the right side headlight.  I put it at under 10 feet, so the table would have me use 14 gauge wire.  I would possibly go up one size to 12 gauge.  BTW, the highlighting is the author's, not mine.  I stole this off the internet.  There are many tables out there, but this one happens to have both 6v and 12v on it, so it's useful for me. 

Here is my process for designing a wire harness.  I break down the wire harness into segments based on distance, switches and loads. (battery to fuse block, fuse to switch, switch to load)  Then I size the wire based on how long the wire needs to be, plus the load it is carrying.  Measured distance first, then load.  If you look at an original CJ2A wire harness, there are very few 12 or 10 gauge wires because they took advantage of the short distance carrying capacity of the lighter wires.  (and no fuses).   And this would be my recommendation to tufcj2a for evaluating his wire harness to see if he will warm up any of his wires.  Distance for each wire segment. Then the total accumulated load for that segment.  Then size the wire accordingly.  And keep in mind that the wire sizes in the table are what can SAFELY carry the load shown for the distance shown.  This is not showing where the wire is in danger of overheating.  

I've been a fabricator since I bought the Blue Mule in 1972.  I've learned a lot since that 16 year old kid built his first wire harness.  Man, what a MESS that was!!  I've just used my education to help me do a better, and some times more efficient, job of fabricating what I want to build.  I just hope that our dialog will help tufcj2a in his quest to build a safe and functional harness for his Jeep.  And anyone else reading this with the idea of replacing some of their old wires with new wires.  
M38Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 2:22am
Yes, I may have overestimated the length of the wire run.

One has to measure the length from the battery, through the fuse box to the light switch, down to the dimmer switch, then forward to the headlights via the fender mounted junction block. Just guessing, I come up with 4.5' from the battery to the headlight switch. Then another 2' to the dimmer switch. Lastly I figure another 4.5' to the lights themselves. That adds up to 11 feet. I am too tired & the Jeep is out in the north 40, so guessing will have to do for now.

I also want the information we give to be accurate & safe. To that end, "places where the wire is in danger of overheating" include near the exhaust, tucked up into the frame away from cooling air, in any conduit, & in any large wire bundle.

IHTH, Matt W.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tufcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 4:56am
All,

Wanted to provide an update.  So far so good, mostly.  Have the harness installed. Worked my way back from the lights, to the dash and gauges (had a good opportunity to repaint them since I had to pull most.  Access is MUCH easier with them removed, made the job faster).  From the gauges back to the battery.

Used mostly 14 gauge throughout, with a couple short 16 gauge runs.  Everything from the battery to the ignition switch is 10 gauge and pretty short runs.

Rather than fight under the panel, though there is plenty of room, I decided to put most of the wiring and harness in the engine compartment.  The relay bank fits perfectly on the driver-side firewall. And the fuse box is just as happy on the passenger side 10 o'clock of the air/oil filter housing.

I need to do some wire grooming and then wrap everything properly (currently just zip-tied for placement).  Also adding a hood light in the engine compartment.  I got these small 9-led lights from Amazon.  6 for $12.  They are super-bright and draw nothing in terms of power.  Replaced the dash light with one as well. HUGE difference.

BUT...I did it.  I actually installed a clean, made-from-scratch car wiring system. Wow.  

Afraid of blowing myself up or entertaining the local fire department, I called my mechanic over and he gave it the once-over and green light.  We connected the battery and she fired right up.  Checked the ammeter and it appears to be working.  Fuel gauge good.  Engine running.  No smoke or funky smell of burning plastic.  Tested the lights.  Blinkers good.  Headlights, high beam, low beam good.  Flip the 12v bus switch.  Turn on the radio.  All seems to be good.  Still can't believe I did it.

Well, I do have a few minor issues and a couple of questions:

1.)  The way the relay system works, It doesn't account for rear parking lights.  Easy fix as I have dual-contact lights and can run another cable to the second unused contact and connect that to the parking switch.

2.) Brake switch must be broken.   I used the switch on the MC and no joy.  Didn't do a bypass test but I will.  Bubba had some weird plastic switch zip-tied to a bar just above the brake pedal.
I picked up a new switch today and will try to install it tomorrow (I suppose I'll have drain the system, install and then bleed the brakes unless you guys have another way?.  It can never be simple).

3.) Pilot light off the flasher isn't working.  I connected a small 12v LED.  I tested it at 6v from the battery itself and it lit up fine, granted not as bright, but plenty enough and without hesitation.  Any ideas?  I know I have 3V LEDs.  I'll go through my stash and see if I can find a 6v.   I'll also test to make sure I'm getting power from the pilot blade.

4.) Big problem, total confusion.  On the headlight/parking light switch, I have what I believe to be the regular CJ2a light switch - two lugs in the back (Ammeter/Brake), three lugs in the front Parking Lights, Dimmer Switch, Taillight.  What I am getting when I pull the switch is the following:

    -Half-out - front parking lights on (I'll wire the back)/headlights off
    -Full-out - headlights on/parking lights off

I would think the switch would be programmed to set both contacts hot when pulled all the way out.  Seems like that is not the case.  Is that how it's supposed to work?  If so, what's your workaround?

I'll post pictures tomorrow after I finish the grooming and looming.

Thanks all.  Greatly appreciate the assistance and support.


Edited by tufcj2a - 13 May 2018 at 4:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 12:02pm
Well done! That's a big job and easy to flub up. 

You may be able to swap the brake light switch without bleeding again, I've seen discussions we're guys have done it successfully. But be prepared to bleed if needed. BTW, an inexpensive vacuum bleeder from Harbor Freight makes bleeding a simple, one man job.

The light switch is working as designed. Back in the day parking lights were used for parking (imagine that!). So there was no reason for them to be on along with the headlamps, it would be unnecessary current draw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 12:57pm
CONGRATULATIONS tufcj2a!!  You've accomplished what many fear to tackle - the wire harness.  Goodonya!!  

Like ndnchf said above, the light switch turns on the front park lights when the headlights are off, but turns off the park lights when the headlights are on.  Tail lights should be on both times.  That's the way they built them back then.  So you can tell if someone put in a generic late model light switch because the park lights will stay on when the headlights are on.  

It sounds like you've done a good job sizing wires and laying them in with forethought and access in mind.  I expect this harness will give you years of good service.  

Matt, I think you and I need to talk over a beer and a tape measure, and a clip board so I can do a better job of explaining why you size the wire on each SEGMENT of a run separately from the rest of the run.  I'd like to show you why you don't need 10 gauge from the battery to the headlights.  So perhaps we'll finish this discussion this summer.  

tufcj2a, one last thought.  I'm glad to read that you didn't release the "magic smoke" out of any wires or components.  Trust me when I tell you that when magic smoke appears, things get expensive.  I've made those mistakes, and paid for them too.  So get those wires bundled and share some photos of your good work for all of us to admire!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2018 at 1:15pm
While replacement Willys smoke is hard to come by, Ford makes a suitable substitute that works quite well. Fortunately, it doesn't look you'll be needing any Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tufcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2018 at 1:15am
Well I finished, as finished as any project ever is (I'm sure I'll find something else to clean up or make tidy).  I do still need to install the brake switch, but I tested the wires and everything works, beautifully even.  I'll put covers over the fuse box and relay harness to protect them from water and such.

Here are the picts:

Top view with the fuse box on the passenger side, relay harness on the driver side.  You can see the engine compartment light.  I need to get a cover for the bulb and secure it (with something other than duct tape).




Close-up of the fuse box



Relay harness




I opted to connect the engine compartment light the parking lug, the parking and dash lights to the taillight lug.  Fixed the problem so now I have:

In/Off - all off
Half Pull - Engine compartment light, parking lights front and rear, dash light
Full Pull - Parking lights front and rear, dash light, headlights

Thanks all again





Edited by tufcj2a - 14 May 2018 at 1:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2018 at 2:41am
Sweet!  Mebbe I should see if you'd like to come to my place and rework some of my wiring messes.  You've done a great job and your attention to detail shows.  Thanks for sharing the challenge and the photos.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tufcj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2018 at 2:51am
Anytime. It was actually really fun. Easy while I watch tv at night. Keep me busy vs glued.  I could probably work up a harness for you. I have the lengths from my cj and leave pkenty of slack. All modular with connectors.  

Not sure what parts cost me as I used much of my on-hands stock.  Easy enough to do if you're not in a rush.





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