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engine number 4LR105647

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Philwarner View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 Jan. 2023 at 10:52pm
I am considering buying a 1943 GPW with what the seller says is a civilian engine with engine number 4LR105647 and it is titled with that engine number.  Any idea what the year and source of this engine might be?  The seller inherited this GPW from his father and doesn't know much about it, but the frame number does fall in the right range for a 43 GPW.
Phil in NW Arkansas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2023 at 2:16am
It's a factory replacement (R) engine for a 4L series engined vehicle

Does the block have the late reinforced rear flange and does it have 2 or 4 freeze plugs on the right side?
Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philwarner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2023 at 10:49am
Thanks for that information, Mark.  This GPW is 6 hours away and I have just some photos of it in a barn so I can't answer the questions.  The fellow who listed it for a friend doesn't know much about it, but apparently the friend's father had a number of Jeeps and this is the last one his son is selling. Would this engine have been purchased from Willys then?    Does the serial number indicate anything about the year of the engine or when it might have been purchased?

 It has the bracket for the oil filter but no oil filter on it and the battery looks like it may be a 12 volt battery but it does have a generator rather than an alternator.  It's a bit of a mixed bag of Jeep parts but appears to have a 43 GPW frame and tub, although the rear has a flat panel bolted on the body as perhaps a repair or a replacement if someone had cut the back out for a tailgate.

He is asking $4,750  for it not running but says the engine turns over by hand and they don't know any more about its condition than that.
Phil in NW Arkansas
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Philwarner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philwarner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2023 at 11:06am
engine photo

Phil in NW Arkansas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2023 at 11:32am
Hard to tell much from the one picture but it has been rewired judging by the fuse block on firewall, and the aftermarket parking lights, so probably is 12 Volt. 

There were plenty of 12 Volt generators made so having a generator does not indicate whether 12 or 6 volt without looking at the tag on it. That looks like a 12 Volt regulator on the fender the 6 Volt regulator would be larger I think.

I always wonder why someone would take pictures when trying to sell something without at least washing off the dust. The fenders and grill look straight though.
If you can't get there in a Jeep you don't need to be there
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philwarner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2023 at 4:40pm
What do you guys think about the value of a GPW converted to 12 volts?  Hagerty says $9,500 for a "fair" CJ2a and 14,800 for a "fair" GPW.

  I was thinking of restoring the GPW to military look if not full military spec and keeping it street legal.  Is $4,750 reasonable?  I know I'd have another $2,500 just in repro combat wheels and tires plus more $$$$ for handles, spare mount, Jerry can mount, bumpers, and pioneer tools.  It does still have the shovel bracket on it.


Phil in NW Arkansas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2023 at 6:37pm
If your thinking of restoring a jeep for its value your in the wrong frame of mind. Unless you spend a stupid amount of money and do a perfect restoration you will never see more then the value of a 10 year old used car. The number of Willys or Ford jeeps that can or will sell for more then $20,000 is TINY.

The value in a jeep like ours is the enjoyment of working on them and then driving them and having fun with them. NOT MONEY

When the hard top is done on my Build I am pretty sure I will have about 20 grand into it. If I could get that in a sale for my Willys I would be totally amazed. Now if you counted the 10.5 Years of almost every spare moment working on it including pretty much 4 solid months every winter. Selling it for 20 grand would put me about $250,000 in the hole based on my income as a Dump truck driver.

If your worried about what to insure it for I have mine currently at 20,000 and when the hard top is done I am going to up it to $25,000 and I pay as much for my coverage on it as I do for the wifes 2013 Ford Focus SE.
Chug A Lug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2023 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Philwarner Philwarner wrote:

What do you guys think about the value of a GPW converted to 12 volts?  Hagerty says $9,500 for a "fair" CJ2a and 14,800 for a "fair" GPW.

  I was thinking of restoring the GPW to military look if not full military spec and keeping it street legal.  Is $4,750 reasonable?  I know I'd have another $2,500 just in repro combat wheels and tires plus more $$$$ for handles, spare mount, Jerry can mount, bumpers, and pioneer tools.  It does still have the shovel bracket on it.


Anything you do to return it to original condition will increase its value. Anything you do to change it away from original condition will decrease its value. Simple hard facts. No opinions involved. 
BW 
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philwarner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2023 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by Mark W. Mark W. wrote:

If your thinking of restoring a jeep for its value your in the wrong frame of mind.


I am not thinking of buying it as an investment or making money on a restoration.  I was just asking you guys with experience if it was a reasonable asking price for what it is.

 My interest in owning a WW2 Jeep stems from playing with little plastic ones in a sand box 70 years ago.   Not really as practical transportation but just for fun.  And I appreciate the practical design for its intended purpose at the time.

I have had a number of Wagoneers, Cherokees, and Grand Cherokees (and still have four of them) but have not owned an early Willys or CJ.   I have also owned and still own a number of older British cars for a similar reason.  I believe that the old saying is actually true that the most expensive car you can own is a cheep Jaguar and I was wondering if that also applies to early Jeeps, but the simplicity of the jeeps would seem to make repair and maintenance more manageable.

So I was just asking if this seems like a reasonable project or a money pit?
Phil in NW Arkansas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote muley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2023 at 8:51pm
Hi Phil and welcome to green jeep disease. IMO the asking price is way on the high side for an unseen dusty non-running jeep. In its favor are a title and 3 letters GPW. A reasonable starting price depends on many factors-general availability in the area, general condition, rust, drivetrain complete and what you're willing to pay. I pay little attention to Hagerty blue sky values .  the perception of high/low is gonna vary depending on which guy you ask. 

if, in the end, you decide to purchase, forget about the doo-dads , get her running and mechanically sound-that's the only way to really know what you have.  the wheels and f script bells and whistles are for later. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan. 2023 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by Philwarner Philwarner wrote:

Is $4,750 reasonable?  I know I'd have another $2,500 just in repro combat wheels and tires plus more $$$$ for handles, spare mount, Jerry can mount, bumpers, and pioneer tools.  It does still have the shovel bracket on it.

Two reasonable people can disagree on the definition of reasonable LOL...  The old adage is that you make your money on the buy.  I'm of the opinion that since you can easily chase your intial investment with 15 to 20k to create a $10-$12,000 masterpiece that what you're "buying" is the journey, not the destination.

That said, for me personally at $2000 a non runner needs a lot of other stuff going for it.  You can become homeless chasing down every little piece retail.  At 3500 I get to at least hear it run.  4-4500 I get to yard drive it, minimum.  Not running I assume everything needs everything.  Total rebuilds front to back, and you're still risking a tired engine already 80 over, or cracked, or worse... trans or transfer cases worn out of spec, or worse.  Generator shot, starter bendix busted, flywheel missing teeth...  The list of unknowns cured by cash is endless, so a non running jeep salad at 4750 is a no go for me.  

It's an opinion.   ... and X2 on putting that 2500 into mechanicals
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan. 2023 at 7:47am
“What is it worth to you?” is the question. It is unlikely you will get your money back if you restore it. I paid $1500 for a running CJ3A frankenjeep from a guy a few years back. I have probably bought $2000 in driveline parts since but that was my option. Plugging leaks kind of snowballed on me. I paid $2500 at auction for my mostly original CJ2A. They had it running at the auction but I couldn’t get it to start again and had the auction company load it with their forklift. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philwarner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan. 2023 at 11:29pm
Thanks for the advice, guys

I have yet to find any source on replacement engine serial numbers.   If replacement engines followed the GPW serial number sequence, 105647 would fall in the 1943 GPW range of 90216 to 170336, but that number would fall in the 1941 Willys MB serial number range of 100001 to 108598 if it came from Willys which doesn’t make sense for a 1941 engine to be replacing a 1943 engine.    Could this replacement engine come from later CJ2a series?  That number would fall in the 1947 CJ2a serial number range of 83380 to 148458.

Anyone know of a source for replacement engine serial numbers VS year?
Phil in NW Arkansas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelyard Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan. 2023 at 11:39pm
You need to look at the casting numbers. 


Micah
1947 CJ2A 106327, Engine J109205, Tub 97077. Luzon Red

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/steelyard-blues_topic41024_post397981.html?KW=micah+movie#397981

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan. 2023 at 11:09am
I have no idea if Willys kept track of the replacement engine serial numbers, I suspect not.

One thing to keep in mind is that after WWII there were a bunch of companies that bought up surplus equipment from Uncle Sugar, not Willys, & resold this equipment later. There was one fellow who bought up all the Radial aircraft engines he could find & then sold them as NOS engines to folks. He did this through the 1990s when he ran out of them.

Sears & Roebuck, Montgomery Wards, & J. C. Whitney all had "surplus" "Jeep" engines for sale through the 1970s or 80s. In 1978 I installed a GPW engine in a 1952 Willys pickup that came from J. C. Whitney. IIRC, The serial number did not reflect the GPW, it was a R4******* whatever. Most of the parts had a script F on them though. I do not know if this was a "rebuilt" or a "Replacement" engine or what. The Jeep's owner bought it as surplus NOS, but I had my doubts even then. In any case, he was happy & it ran great, so no worries.

If this engine was indeed surplus NOS, Willys would have no record of it or it's serial number. J. C. Whitney might, but I doubt that anyone kept these kind of records until now from 1978, say nothing of from 1941.

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Philwarner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan. 2023 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by Steelyard Blues Steelyard Blues wrote:

You need to look at the casting numbers. 


Micah


Thanks for that link.  I'll read up on it.  We had a big wet show storm last night and lost power so I was busy fueling the generator and bringing in wood for the stove during the night so wifie would be snug in bed with the electric blanket.  I keep finding more to learn about these early Jeeps.  Thanks to all for adding to my education.
Phil in NW Arkansas
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan. 2023 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by Philwarner Philwarner wrote:

Thanks for the advice, guys

I have yet to find any source on replacement engine serial numbers.   If replacement engines followed the GPW serial number sequence, 105647 would fall in the 1943 GPW range of 90216 to 170336, but that number would fall in the 1941 Willys MB serial number range of 100001 to 108598 if it came from Willys which doesn’t make sense for a 1941 engine to be replacing a 1943 engine.    Could this replacement engine come from later CJ2a series?  That number would fall in the 1947 CJ2a serial number range of 83380 to 148458.

Anyone know of a source for replacement engine serial numbers VS year?

  There is no reason why Willys replacement engines would follow GPW numbering sequence. GPW’s were produced by Ford Motor Company and Ford also produced replacement engines during World War II. Ford did not produce any jeeps or any replacement parts after the war’s end. The 4LR engines with 641087 casting numbers were made after the introduction of the CJ2-A and into the early 1950’s. 
  A lot of things could have happened to result in that replacement engine being in that GPW. Here is just one possible scenario: The original engine in the GPW became worn or damaged and needed to be replaced, so the owner took the jeep to a Willys-Overland dealer and had them replace the engine. The 4LR engine was supplied by the dealership parts department and the service department installed it. Or the jeep’s owner went to the Willys-Overland dealer and bought the 4LR engine from the parts department and installed it himself. 
  As to the 4LR number being used as a serial number on the title, it was common in those days to use the engine number as a vehicle serial number. When the GPW engine was removed, the number was changed to match the number of the new engine. 
  Very, VERY few GPW’s retain their original engine. When I worked for Chevrolet, of course original “matching numbers” was very important to restorers. Chevrolet “service replacement” engines had a specific number prefix (I dont remember what it was) similar to Willys’ 4LR. Having a service replacement engine with that code was considered to be the next best thing to matching numbers. I would be happy to have a 4LR engine in any of my jeeps. 
BW 

It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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