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Entire coolant in oil pan!!!!

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m allen View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 June 2019 at 7:43pm
Put f head in chassis over 2 years ago.  Started an ran several times to prove that I was making headway on ONE of my projects. (yep, I am one of those)  Never ran engine more than 3 or 4 min. although it was completely plumbed with new radiator and hoses.  Since then mounted body and continued the march on total rebuild.  No leaks--coolant level in radiator spot on.  Feeling good.  Have been under jeep numerous times.  Strayed to another hobby for last couple of months.  Noticed oil dripping!!!  Just started!!!  Found a couple of pan bolts that were a little loose. I don"t like to over tighten those guys and deform pan.  No help!  It appeared to be oozing out the entire pan/engine block union???  The oil level is not that high!!!  It has not leaked for 2 years!
Pulled oil pan drain plug--pure coolant poured out...after that the engine oil poured out!!!!  Coolant displaced oil level so that is why oil was at same level of gasket...I get that.  I am sick! 
Engine came back from machine shop in short block format.  Have not checked cylinders for coolant-been too bummed...I have studied shop manual to try and make a plan of correction.
 
If you guys could just list out all of the problem areas that would be great.  In other words--which bolts or block plugs could compromise the two systems.  Could I have used wrong water pump gasket?  Are all F head gaskets the same for all years?  I will not be insulted by any statement of the obvious...I hate the thought of pulling the engine apart when I am down to some wiring, which is going well. (no smoke or flames yet!!!
Quite wordy and I apologize----thanks m allen 
 
 
 
 
 
Michael D. Allen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 8:06pm
interesting.....

Being that is hasn't run in two years, I'm going to theorize it was a slow drip drip that finally raised the level of the oil to catch you attention. I'm hoping that's good in that this isn't a mysterious and sudden catastrophic failure. 

Did you re-torque the head after your brief run times? Could be as simple as that. If it we me, I'd pull the head and look around. Replace head gasket. 

Worst case - a tiny crack the shop missed. 

But let's stay positive here! 

A bad water pump gasket will only create and external leak. In no way can it introduce coolant into the crankcase. 


Edited by nofender - 11 June 2019 at 8:10pm
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mbullism View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 10:06pm
I'm going to stay positive and assume nothing as awful as a crack,and then pile on head gasket never seating.  Three or four minutes is no where near long enough to heat the block through to op temp, and then if you didn't retorque the head after a cool down...  Were it me I'd recheck head torque, swap out oil and coolant for fresh, cheapest oil and maybe even straight water...then run it up to temp and hold it there a couple five minutes... let it cool and retorque.  You may just get whatever it is to seal.  If you note water level drop or foam in the oil you then might consider cracking it open.

The red flag seems to be the short run time and the long wait...

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m allen View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m allen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 10:45pm
Thanks for replies and trying to keep me upbeat.  I guess what puzzles me the most is the volume of coolant in the oil pan.  It was at least one gallon!  I would not think that the water jackets in the head would hold that much to leak down over time.  At any rate, we will see and I will drive this jeep soon!!
Michael D. Allen
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Bruce W View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 11:02pm
  DO NOT START TAKING THINGS APART! until you diagnose the problem. There are ways to find out how the coolant got into the oil pan without "pulling the head and looking around". When the head is removed, the gasket and half of your evidence is destroyed. Look around, then if warranted, pull the head.   BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m allen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 11:29pm
Indeed Bruce.  I have not touched it other than to pull oil pan drain plug.  I plan on pulling the spark plugs to see if coolant is present in cylinders first and go from there.  Obviously I have goofed up somewhere.  So keep comments coming fellows.  I am glad that the problem presented at this stage and not later on the go somewhere. 
mike allen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rus Curtis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 11:54am

Originally posted by m allen m allen wrote:

...which bolts or block plugs could compromise the two systems....

 

...Are all F head gaskets the same for all years?...  

 

...I guess what puzzles me the most is the volume of coolant in the oil pan.  It was at least one gallon!  I would not think that the water jackets in the head would hold that much to leak down over time.... 

 

 

Michael,

These engines are comparatively simple, so troubleshooting is doable.  You DO have a Service Manual (SM), right?

 

Systems on your engine can be broken down into individual components, i.e. Fuel system, Cooling system, Oil system, etc.  There aren't too many crossover points since these systems need to be kept separate.  You can find a stud or bolt that penetrates into the water jacket and see the leak externally around that fastener.  Internally, there are gaskets/seals that separate. 

 

Looking at the cooling system in the SM you'll see the capacity is 3 gallons.  Knowing that any fluid wants to flow down-hill using the path of least resistance, it's easy to see why the leak allowed your coolant to flow from the coolant system (radiator/heater/engine block) down to the oil pan.  When pressurized, any potential leak can be made worse.  There may have been just enough pressure to open a path to allow a slow drip until you saw the oil overflow. 

 

The same thing can happen to fuel when the fuel pump diaphragm fails; the oil pan fills up with gas.  The dipstick can be helpful: Green or clear droplets in oil usually indicate coolant leak.  Oil that smells like gas indicate a fuel leak.  I guess mentioning that it's also possible to see an oil sheen or oil droplets floating by the open radiator filler neck helps you diagnose also (only possible if the radiator is full).

 

I agree with running first to finish the re-torqueing sequence.  Get that done.  The engine needs to get up to temperature.  You may find some other symptoms that will help with your diagnosis.

 

I agree with water until you figure this out - it's cheaper.  I suggest distilled water but since this could take a while, hose water will work just fine.  After resolved you can then switch to distilled for a full flush/refill with antifreeze (this will help with minimizing deposits).

 

So for me, first I'd drain the coolant that is left.  If you can keep it clean, you may be able to bottle it and reuse.  Change the oil and run the engine until hot with the rad cap off to watch flow.  Once you see a few cycles, you'll want to screw the cap on to allow the system to pressurize (this may or may not be key to your leak).  But all along be watching for leaks and steam coming out the exhaust. 

 

After you re-torque the head bolts (remember you have one under the carb), repeat above.

 

I agree that you may fix the problem but if it still exists, and you post more on your findings, THEN maybe a look inside would be needed.

 
Let us know what you find.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 3:46pm
There is no head bolt under the carb, so I am confused by that statement.

For a gallon of coolant to be in the oil pan the leak either occurred under pressure while running (head gasket leak), or there is a leak in the water jacket which could slowly drip dry with enough time sitting. There is about a gallon in the water jacket around the cylinders. 

Water and other fluids do run down hill but there is not really a down hill path from the radiator into the engine while sitting that would allow that much flow. 

I suspect a head gasket leak. IF that turns out to be the case when you replace the gasket, make sure to put sealant on the threads of the head studs going into the block.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Oldpappy Oldpappy wrote:

There is no head bolt under the carb, so I am confused by that statement.

Water and other fluids do run down hill but there is not really a down hill path from the radiator into the engine while sitting that would allow that much flow. 


He has an F-head, Pappy, and there is a head bolt under the carb.

  How much coolant do you suppose is in the upper radiator tank, upper hose, approximately 1/3 of the radiator core, and cylinder head? They are all above the head gasket, and if the leak happens to be lower in the block, there's even more.   BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m allen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 8:04pm
Thanks responders.  I do have SM.  In my mind I followed instructions to the tee, to include sealant on head bolt threads that penetrated water jacket and carefully installed head and gasket.  I was hoping there was an over looked plug that either I or the machine shop failed to replace.  If a crack is not the culprit, then I am understanding that the head gasket or under torqued head bolts would be the only failure. 
I was afraid that the entire lubricating circuits were contaminated with coolant...rod bearings, cam bearings, rockers etc. requiring a total tear down and reassembly.  From responses, this does not seam to worry anyone and I am Glad.  I guess the coolant found an oil return path directly to the pan.  Makes sense. 
Once the coolant in the radiator fell below the limits of the upper opening, (hose connection) that would be all that could enter the head. (Talking static engine)  That along with the head volume of coolant is what one could expect to find in oil pan--correct? (barring out a cracked head/block under pressurized running conditions)
 
Thanks to all
 
Michael D. Allen
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oldpappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2019 at 9:10am
Entirely missed it was an F-Head somehow, and I have never worked on one of those.


I would open the petcock on the side of the block and see how much coolant comes out. Might tell if there is a leak in the water jacket.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2019 at 11:32am
Michael,
I think your conclusion above is accurate.  I too would not be overly concerned about contaminated oil passages.  A fresh batch of oil will push through there pretty quickly.
  
Even with no leak, moisture can build up in the oil galley.  More so for folks like you in humid climates.  This would make it more important to run sitting engines up to temperature on a fairly frequent basis.  I'm in a dry climate, but will still try to run my engines 4 or 5 times during the winter months when I'm not driving them much.

I'm hoping for the best for you.  I know that demoralized feeling all too well.  These old Jeeps can test us. 

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2019 at 11:45am
Have to agree on the contamination concern, or relative lack thereof...part of why I suggested cheap oil above because step two would be replacing all the fluids again as soon as you get sorted...

I wouldn't get too far down the road on the details of how much water and what path it took.  Under the right circumstances you could have established a syphon and ended up dry, lol.  The bottom line is that I'd go looking for horses and not zebras, and the head gasket seems like the likely culprit (IMO) in the scenario you laid out.  The easiest course of action is to try and get it sealed (assuming it's not).  If that works out, hooray...if not, then you pull the head and replace the gasket, and while open have a good look around.

None of it is difficult, necessarily, and it's relatively low cost unless or until you find a zebra...and then you deal with the zebra.  Work the problem Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 67charger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 June 2019 at 11:54am

If you get to a point that you need help, I live in Trimble County and can help try and troubleshoot. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 June 2019 at 12:32pm
   What to Do !

Here is the deal: today's head gaskets are designed to not require re-torqueing.
Years ago, this may have been the "norm", but not today.

Here is my 2-cents worth, and probably not worth Much.
   I would turn the engine over at least 12-times with all of the spark plugs removed, to expel water that may be in the cylinders. (no oil in pan)
   Then, fill cooling system to brim.
   Next, go to Autozone and rent their cooling system pressurizer tester.
   Next, pressurize the cooling system with 15-lbs pressure and keep the system pressurized for 1-hour, or maybe overnight.   Disconnect the pressure tester and turn the engine over to see if coolant comes out of one of the cylinders. watch closely for which cylinder may spray-out the coolant. If not, next pull the oil drain plug to see if water comes out.
   My suspicion is that you have a head gasket failure. (hopefully no crack).
If your head has a crack, it could allow coolant to drip into a cylinder until the coolant has drained to the level of the crack. ( possible ). yep
(I had a ford Taurus head repaired that had 11-cracks back in 1998). no lie.


   If your cooling system looses pressure when testing, and no visual leaks, you have an internal leak going-on big-time.

   I think your leak is allowing the coolant to drain out of the system down to the block-deck level. Unfortunately, the head gasket is at this same level.

   You mentioned you started with a rebuilt short-block assembly. If an engine rebuilder assembled this short-block, I would hope that they had magna-fluxed the block to look for cracks.

Did you have your head checked for cracks at the time of the refurbish ?
   It is hared for me to consider the fact that you may have a pin-hole leak from water jacket through cylinder wall. This would allow coolant to leak through over time, and the water would drain down through the rings down to the oil pan.   Diesel engines were notorious for getting pin-holes due to electrolysis back in the '70's in semi=tractors. Most old-timers wouldn't buy coolant for their old Willy's and just used water. Glycol prevents the rusting in the cooling system, so we don't get pin-holes. Gas tanks rust through from the outside and get pin-holes.   

   I hope this winds up being a simple Fix, but _ _ _ probably not.


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