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PTO'S & Governers |
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westforkboyd 
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 Topic: PTO'S & GovernersPosted: 18 Jan. 2007 at 10:55pm |
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Could some of you guys with pto tell me how they work powering equipment? I figure they must run like tractors and therefore you would need a governer too. How good do/would they power like a mower, log splitter, or run an elevator without the governer? It's one thing I've thought about getting but I think I'd have to find the gov, bracket, got the double pully, linkage, t-handle, what else? Other than something to play with, and tinker around with I thought it might be fun. I'd like to hear some of your experiences.
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Jonesy
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Posted: 18 Jan. 2007 at 11:43pm |
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I spent good many hours in a cj2a as a farm boy, a lot of it involved PTO power. If you don't have a mechanical governor, YOU are the governor. For most applications, that is just fine; the pto speed usually isn't real critical. Dad's Willys had a governor but we only used it when it was used as a stationary power source, like running a grain auger. For operating a mower, spray rig, swather, etc. that used PTO, the governor was just a bother. Much easier to adjust one's foot than mess with the governor control. For a log splitter it would be nice but hand throttle would probably be adequate, unless it was a BIG one, that put a lot of load on the engine. The power requirement is probably the key factor for running stationary equipment, if it will require a lot of power sometimes, and less others, then a governor will be necessary (either human or mechanical). At the risk of beating a dead horse, the PTO power train is DANGEROUS, use guards, make them if you have to, and shut down the engine before adjusting, repairing, etc. My great uncle lost a arm to a PTO shear pin that was a tad too long, and he got a tad too close, it grabbed his coat sleeve and I'll leave the rest to your imagination. Be careful
CJAlaska |
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trader_reed
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Posted: 19 Jan. 2007 at 7:55am |
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WFB, I know that when I use the belt drive to power my Buzz saw if the governor isn't engaged and set the saw will bog down once the log is introduced. This can be overcome by selecting a higher gear and higher throttle position. Saw speed can be set by either selecting a higher transmission gear or by increasing throttle position. The governor helps out here by lowering you throttle position and I find that a slower speed feels safer.
The last thing you want is your Jeep engine screaming while the pto driveline is wizzing and this 30" ungaurded saw blade is a blur.
The governor is a cool item, once engaged at say 5 mph I can stand on the brakes and the Jeep will still go, it's almost unstoppable. Makes a good cruise control too.
Making my Jeep work is just as enjoyable FOR ME as driving it. Now it only does light "clean" work now. This summer I was cutting some old railroad ties with my saw combo and it was great. Now I'm alway looking for equipment to run.
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p3ferris
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Posted: 19 Jan. 2007 at 8:17pm |
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Use the choke it will power up the pto untill you get a gov. Run it at a parcial throttle not at a full speed.
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Ed
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westforkboyd
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Posted: 20 Jan. 2007 at 12:37pm |
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Thanks Ken, Ed, and trader reed. All my pto implements require a 540rpm pto speed. This is standard on all the older smaller ag stuff. Lefty has a pto setup but its not the standard one I've seen (other than the spicer unit). I have no gearbox in the back. I'm thinking of setting Mule up with one. I take it the gearbox in back is a reduction gear setup? To get you to 540rpm at what? around 2000 engine rpm? Does it come out of the spicer engagement unit at 1 to 1 from the engine? All that stuff is internal of course on tractors and I am familiar with that. But I'm trying to get an idea of whats going on with this W/O setup before I move forward on this.
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trader_reed
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Posted: 20 Jan. 2007 at 1:52pm |
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WFB,
All the info you need about PTO speeds and such can be found here.
This brochure is so cool I found one of my own!!!
Read page 16 and 17
Matt
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trader_reed
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Posted: 20 Jan. 2007 at 1:56pm |
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Oh, all rear PTO gear boxes are not the same CJ2A ones had 20-24 gears which could be switched to 24-20. Later CJ3A and CJ5 ones where 22-22.
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Jonesy
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Posted: 20 Jan. 2007 at 2:06pm |
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WFB:
The short answer to your other questions is, PTO speed is determined by engine speed and transmission gear ratio. The unit on the transfer case is straight through, it's just a in/out selector. For the LONG answer, try this link (right next door on the cj2a page, the link is to the owners manual) for all the details on ratios:
Might as well figure on finding a rear box and driveshaft. You will need the standard drive spline shaft anyway. BTW that 540 RPM is critical for only a few applications, such as getting a certain flow rate from a pump. Tor most things it just defines the general class, "low speed", as you will see when you study the charts in the OM.
CJAlaska
Edited by CJAlaska - 20 Jan. 2007 at 2:07pm |
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westforkboyd
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Posted: 21 Jan. 2007 at 9:45am |
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Thanks again for the links and advice. I see there are at least three governors used; novi, monarch, and king seeley. Is there any best one? I should probalby be happy with even finding one no matter which one it is. Any preferences here? Better operation or features?
Snowing pretty good here again. Making up for lost time. Maybe it'll keep heading north so Gary can have a taste.
Gotta watch da Bears beat the Katrinas today so I'll mount my plow on the Oliver tomorrow and get to work! Maybe Bears Pats again (same result)
Matt wanted to tell you how much I admire your Willys. One of the nicest ones I've seen (pics of anyway). I was a litttle suprised but pleased that you work that beauty. I'll bet that is fun!
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trader_reed
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Posted: 21 Jan. 2007 at 11:57am |
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WFB,
Thanks for the compliments. It works but not that hard, believe me. It never gets dirty.
Out of the three governors used I only have experience with the Monarch. From what I know the Novi is the easiest as it always engaged. The Seeley and Monarch both need to be engaged to operate. The problem with always being engaged is that it takes horsepower to turn it and would wear out quicker. It's nice to be able to disengage it but the King Seeley was a little dangerous as the knob is very close to the fan. The Monarch uses a latch to engage and was a little safer. The each have their pros and cons. The King Seeley and Monarch are a little harder to adjust. They all work the same and do the job well. Read the Operation and care manual to learn about adjusting them.
GO PATS!!!!!!
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lowenuf
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Posted: 21 Jan. 2007 at 1:38pm |
With all due respect, as i do not run neither the Monarch nor the K-S, i have to ask, why would closeness to the fan blade be an issue? As you stated, read the operation manual, and i have many times, and for the 2 mentioned gov's, it states, as does the warning plate on the mounting bracket, to engage, and disengage with engine not running, so, i would assume <--(key word there) that the relation to the fan blade would be of little meaning.
Now, with that said, i must ask another question regarding the Novi, (which i run), i have the same warning tag as mentioned before, but you state the Novi is always engaged. If that being the case, then why would/should i have to turn off the engine to engage/disengage it? I by no means doubt the information i have received prior, but this now confuses me somewhat...Low Edited by lowenuf - 21 Jan. 2007 at 1:41pm |
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45 #10012
45 #10033 ACM #47 45 #10163 ACM #188 57 CJ5 Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick |
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Jonesy
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Posted: 21 Jan. 2007 at 2:11pm |
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Dad's was one of those you had to take the belt off to disengage, I don't remember the brand name. His was meant for field and stationary use, and trying to use it as a vehicle, rather than a tractor, with the governor engaged just didn't work well at all. Probably one reason the governor wasn't used much. Dad had some colorful words to describe the engineers that designed it. CJAlaska
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trader_reed
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Posted: 21 Jan. 2007 at 2:17pm |
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Low,
You are 100% correct the Warning tag on the bracket tells you turn off the engine before engaging the governor. The reason for this is because of the location of the engagement knob on the King Seeley not because it affects the governor. I bet many people have like myself have ignored the warning and engaged the governor without turning off the engine, No big deal with the Monarch but fairly dangerous with the K-S.
So like you stated If one obeyed the Warning tag the relation to the fan has no importance.
Your second question is a good one also. It's simple really, Willys never changed the bracket and Warning tag. Just like the radiator shroud that has the relief for the King Seeley engagement knob, All CJ2A's have it whether it had a governor or not and no matter which governor it had.
You don't have to turn off the engine to operate your Novi, just pull out the dash control handle
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trader_reed
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Posted: 21 Jan. 2007 at 2:26pm |
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CJAlaska,
Was it a Pierce? (spelling)
That the only governor that always "working" but it was made stationary generators and welders. If it was it must have been a bi*#h to use, I'm not even sure how he could have done it.
I've driven my Jeep around town with the governor engaged and it really wasn't a big deal. It just affected the throttle response.
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lowenuf
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Posted: 21 Jan. 2007 at 2:48pm |
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another stationary Gov manufacturer was Hobart themselves, for the welders, i recently looked at a 2A, that someone had put what appeared to be a welder engine in, and it still had the gov attached, with a Hobart tag and number on the gov..low
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45 #10012
45 #10033 ACM #47 45 #10163 ACM #188 57 CJ5 Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick |
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Jonesy
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Posted: 21 Jan. 2007 at 3:00pm |
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Trader,
Pierce? Don't know but I probably would have remembered that, it's the name of the nearest town to the farm in Colorado. The jeep came equipped with the PTO and ag weight so I always assumed the governor came with the package. I have pix that show the ag weight in 1948 when it was new... not sure I could document the rest.
Dad had a lot of farm machinery around with 4- and 6-cyl engines with governors, and he was a pretty good mechanic, had some Army training and knew his way around engines. He was "particular" about things working properly, so maybe it was just a matter of expectations.
I drove the jeep for hundreds of hours, but I was just the help, and not entitled to an opinion. But I didn't like that d****d governor either.
CJAlaska
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trader_reed
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Posted: 21 Jan. 2007 at 3:11pm |
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I wonder when Hobart brought the governors "in house" Here is a picture of my 1945 Hobart welder w/MB engine and equipped with Pierce governor.
  It was 100% original, the spark plugs where never even changed and still had the military rain shields on them.
CJAlaska,
Maybe your dad's Jeep had a Novi and just like running with out it spinning, I bet that's the case.
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lowenuf
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Posted: 21 Jan. 2007 at 3:24pm |
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neat looking. the engine i saw was yellow, and the gov looked exactly like a Novi, except, instead of hooking directly to the carb, the linkage went from the gov back alongside the head, and attached to the throttle linkage on the back of the head, when the gov would call for power, it appeared it would just pull on the linkage rod that would also fo to the floor pedal, mind you, this cold have been a mod someone did that installed the engine into the 2A..
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45 #10012
45 #10033 ACM #47 45 #10163 ACM #188 57 CJ5 Dauntless V6, T-18 4-speed, D-44 rear/D-30 front, D-20 twin stick |
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trader_reed wrote: